NDF Plus for chelation

[Susan LymeRA]

My doctor started me on NDF Plus.  It is still not the full strength DMSA but stronger than what I have been doing.  Dr said I shouldn't notice a thing…………HA!

I started with one drop every other day for one week and did well.  I noticed some knuckle popping and ankles would creak for an hour then disappear.  No problem with any of this.

Second week I advanced to 1 drop daily.  By Weds (3rd dose) my left wrist (this is my dominant hand and the only joint that RA destroyed all cartilege) began to flare.  I stopped the NDF immediately but the flare continued to advance until Sat, I was in enough pain to increase my Enbrel back to once a week instead of every other week.  Dang it!

It took 7 days for the wrist to calm back down.  I started the NDF again but will only take 1 drop a week until I feel I can increase.

Prior and up to this flare, I was on the Metabolic Typing Protein Diet which was making me alkaline but with the NDF, I am back to bright yellow acidic.  grrrrrr…..  I have started 3 glasses of 1/2 tsp baking soda to see if I can get alkaline again.  So far, (3 days) the answer is no.

I was also taking the olive oil, tumeric, quercitin concoction which is supposed to be as good as a steriod.  I was taking it because the protein diet needs lots of fat and I wanted healthy fat.  Also was hoping it would prevent a flare.

Oh well……..

The protein diet has been good and easy to follow and my stomach, blood pressure are both way down, but I am constipated which I wasn't when on the mostly veggie diet.  I hoped this would adjust itself but so far not.  My allowed veggies are asparagus, cauliflower, carrots, peas, artichoke, mushroom, all beans.  There may be a couple more, I don't have my list in front of me, but this is the gist of it.

I decided to add back some more cruciferous veggies like brocolli.  My bowels began to work again but my stomach is blown up.  I am miserable as I sit here and I have had little to eat today.  I can't understand why I am reacting this way to foods I have eaten my entire life.  I seriously look 8 mths pregnant and the bloat in my upper area is pressing on my diaphram.  I feel like an elephant or a beached whale.

I thought you guys might find the NDF Plus interesting.  Here is the manufacturer's website.  It has been potent stuff for me.

http://www.bioraynaturaldetox.com/

 

[mschmidt]

Susan,

I'm so sorry to hear you are having difficulty right now.  The metabolic typing diet is really a good diet but, constipation isn't a good thing either.  I tend to get really bloated with broccoli and cauliflower, especially if it's cooked.  I notice that when I eat most of my veggies raw, I don't experience the same effects.  I know that the enzymes with raw veggies are intact, which helps with digestion for sure.  I did the metabolic typing test, and found I was more of a mixed type, and that has served me well.  If I do eat more protein than usual, constipation follows.  Sometimes it can take your body some time to get used to the new veggies and adjust. 

Thanks for the info about NDF, it's very interesting, and I'm going to mention it to my doctor when I see him in February.

Hang in there-things will get better.

Maria

[Cheryl F]

Susan,

Why is your doctor recommending chelation?  My doctor is currently having his patients take EDTA, but not for chelation, he is using it to break down biofilms.  I also have high lead levels so that is an added benefit, but his main purpose in the ETDA is to bust the biofilm.

Cheryl

[linda]

Cheryl,

My old AP docotr in Scottsdale had me on EDTA for the same reason. I thought it was to break down biofilms as well, but that the process by which it did that was chelation. My memory is bad so I can't say for sure. But at the time hen I posted about EDTA no one else here was using it, I don't think. I still have about half a bottle of EDTA left, I'm sure expired by now. This doctor is the one who feels that magnesium is bad b/c the microbes use it to make biofilms. He seemed very smart but I fired him b/c of very poor patient care. Anyway, your post reminded me of the EDTA I had. I don't know if it would've helped since I had just started taking it when my tummy went all wonky on me and I had to quit AP.

[Cheryl F]

Linda,

Do you know if he (Dr. F I assume) ever published anything on the mag/biofilm connection? I told my AP doc about Dr. F's thoughts on this issue and would really like to provide him with some written information if any exists.

There is an internet radio program where he talks about the mag/biofilm issue, but I cannot find anything in writing.

Cheryl

[Susan LymeRA]

Very interesting about the EDTA and biofilms.  My doctor has had me on a Parastat and Paracidin protocol for a year which is for parasites but also breaks up biofilm.  I am fairly certain she would not have given me the EDTA due to my reactivity to chelation of any kind.  Cilantro causes flare ups.

I am much better today.

[Susan LymeRA]

Maria,

Interesting thought about the raw veggies.  I actually attempted to eat only raw but had to give it up just due to difficulty of preparing and maintaining the diet.  Everything has to be ultra fresh.  Can't freeze it or let it sit for days.  I then decided to eat something raw daily and soon, raw was all I wanted.  I do think the body likes food this way.

Even though I keep having these hurdles in my healing, don't get me wrong about where I am in my healing.  Three years ago, I was just praying I would be able to continue to ride horses.  I thought my days of training young horses was definitely over.  Too risky. 

However, since then I have trained another one and he is now my trusted steed.  This spring I am beginning training on my baby horse.  The one whose mother abandoned her.  Two weekends ago, I took her to a training farm and spent the afternoon chasing her around a round pen.  She did wonderful and so did I.  I'm running along behind her, popping a very long driving whip which requires arm and hand strength.  Sounds ridiculous I know, but if you observe horses in the field, this is exactly how the boss horse establishes dominance over the other horses.  Once dominance is establilshed, the subservant horses, not only comply with the boss horse, they actually follow the boss horse everywhere, imitating and buddying up to the boss horse.

My filly long ago learned her ground manners, but she had never been chased by me.  Afterall, I am her mother right?  So she was shook up by the whole ordeal and I felt bad about that.  But you watch.  Soon enough she will become yet another trusty steed.  Having them obey you without question saves your life when you encounter situations where the horse would like to bolt away right into a tree, traffic, building, off a cliff, etc.  It is called “blind fear”.  All prey animals do this.  Moving away quickly is their only means of survival but in our world, there are so many dangers they can flee into ……. like cars. 

So, we have to teach horses to override that fear and face down the enemy much the way predators do.  In order to get a horse to do that, they must totally see you as the boss.

Oh my, how did I veer off into a horse training lesson?  My passion/obsession. 

My original point is that I have to be feeling pretty good to run around swinging a large whip and yelling “yah!  gid up!    😀

 

[mschmidt]

Susan,

You go girl!! I found myself mesmerized by what you were saying about horses.  Being that passionate about anything is fantastic, and I truely believe (my mom had horses growing up, and every time she talks about memories of her childhood, her face lights up) it facilitates healing.  Horses are such amazing animals, and it gives me great joy to hear you talk about your experience with them.  Thank you for that!

I'm pretty convinced that raw foods (although I couldn't do meat or eggs this way) are really good for you.  I eat raw goat and sheep milk cheese, and have for a while because of all the good bacteria in it.  My mom never had pasteurized anything, and I have friends from Germany, Russia, and Italy that have never touched pasteurized anything, and they're fine.  (even their children are fine, and they were given raw milk as infants)  I'm by no means advocating everyone jump on a totally raw food diet but, I think at least eating veggies raw is a good thing.  It does require A LOT of planning, and it is one of the hardest things I've had to do for a while.  I've also taken to fermented food, and am making my first batch of sourkraut this weekend.  I've read a lot of articles to convince me that incorportating that into my diet would be beneficial as well.  Since I'm on so many antibiotics right now, I could use all the help with good bacteria I can get. 

I'm so glad to hear you are able to enjoy what you are so passionate about:D

Maria

[mschmidt]

Linda,

I, too would like to know if there's anything published about the mag/biofilm connection because I've heard this before, as well as know that I read it on some Lyme blog in the past.  This is concerning to me for 2 reasons:  1) My llmd (as well as my former llmd) recommended magnesium as a supplement, and stressed that magnesium deficiency can wreak havoc on your body.  and 2) I'm currently taking a mixed magnesium supplement, which has helped my insomnia tremenously but, now I'm worried I may just be tired because the bacteria/spriochetes are colonizing together 😯

I'm going to have a serious discussion about this with my llmd when I see him in mid-February

Maria

[linda]

Yes, it was Dr. F in Scottsdale. He seems to be very involved currently in finding one single microorganism for all auto immune diseases, even tho there may be many pathogens inside of a biofilm. Hmmm. I couldn't find an article where he specifically talks about how magnesium is used by pathogens to build biofilms, only that he believes that they do. He stated that calcium and iron are also used. There is a group of doctors in Phoenix that has a new protocol for IV abx. Here is the link for that info-how I wish they had that when I was there!

http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/tinagarcia/new%20treatment%20dramatic%20results.htm

Apparently the first IV is just chelating agents that break down the biofilms, then a week later the IV abx begin. A  IV cath is inserted and the patient goes to the office each week for the IVs, nine weeks total. Dr. F still is not set up for IV treatments, he seems to be more involved in research. I couldn't find any articles about his research into magnesium, just this hour long video which Kim posted a while back.

[font=”Verdana, Arial”]http://contacttalkradio.soundwaves2000.com:8080/ctr/inshortorder071408.mp3[/font]

I have not thought about magnesium for a while, now I'm looking into it again but still on the fence. But destroying the biofilms before starting AP makes good sense to me. Maybe I need a nine week vacation to AZ.

Edited by RBFV to remove the full name of a physician per forum guidelines

[lynnie_sydney]

I would also be very interested to hear more about the magnesium/biofilm connection. In terms of Lyme disease, it seems to contradict the 2008 Burrascano Lyme treatment guidelines: 

[align=left](page 6) Magnesium <span style="font-size:2]deficiency is very often present and quite severe. Hyperreflexia, muscle twitches, myocardial irritability, poor stamina and recurrent tight muscle spasms are clues to this deficiency. Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value. Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but those with severe deficiencies need additional, parenteral dosing%;”>[/size][/align]
http://www.lymenet.org/BurrGuide200810.pdf

I have to say that my own recent experience tends to lean towards the deficiency stance. After somewhat of a health crisis a few months back, I started to suffer from excruciatingly severe muscle aches in my upper legs. Eventually I was able to successfully treat them with a combination of oral magnesium and a topical magnesium cream used at night. Lynnie

   

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[mschmidt]

You are SO right Lynnie!! I just re-read Burrascano's 2008 treatment guidelines today, and came across the same information you did, which is most Lyme patients are found to be deficient in Magnesium.  All I know is the last time I went to see my LLMD (2 mos ago), after describing some of my symptoms, he suggested I use a Magnesium supplement right before bedtime, and I have to say, NO more insomnia for me. (he said insomnia can also be a symptom of magnesium deficiency)  I also noticed that the tightness/soreness in my muscles after working out is noticeably better since taking it as well.  I will ask him at my visit in a few weeks about the magnesium/biofilm connection.  He goes to conferences and training seminars all the time so, I trust that he'd know the answer to this question.

Maria

[lynnie_sydney]

Maria – I will be very interested in his answer. Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[linda]

I still don't know what to think, this is just like the vit.D conflict. I suppose the rationale for patients with an AI disease or Lyme all being deficient in magnesium would be that the microbes are using the magnesium to build their biofilms, thus causing a deficiency. Dr. F told me that he began to suspect that the bacteria are using magnesium b/c of what happened when he would tell his patients to take magnesium supplements. They would report that they felt good for about 2 wks, then they would notice that their symptoms were getting worse. He suspected that it took about that much time for the bacteria to begin using the extra magnesium to build more biofilms, which then made the abx less effective.

But I can't think of anyone here at rbf that has had that experience with magnesium. You all seem to benefit from it for as long as you take it, not just for 2 weeks, so I don't know what to think. I don't have much good to say about Dr. F as far as the treatment of his patients, he was very busy with research and now even has his own lab, but still is not set up in his office to administer IV abx. If his office staff is the same as it was 3 yrs ago, he doesn't even have a good lab tech in his office. Some people love him, so maybe we just didn't mesh. Anyway, I'm still unsure about magnesium.

[lynnie_sydney]

But I can't think of anyone here at rbf that has had that experience with magnesium. You all seem to benefit from it for as long as you take it, not just for 2 weeks, so I don't know what to think.

Linda – that has certainly been my experience – the benefits I've felt appear to be ongoing. Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

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