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[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:
I suppose the rationale for patients with an AI disease or Lyme all being deficient in magnesium would be that the microbes are using the magnesium to build their biofilms, thus causing a deficiency.
Hi Linda,
As I understand the whole topic of biofilms (and that's limited – it's a pretty complex subject), some pathogens have a proclivity for magnesium and calcium in building their biofilms and some don't. It really depends on what pathogen is involved.
Below is a Welsh study from 2005 that is pretty interesting. In this case, they were studying the ability of different organisms to build biofilms on urinary catheters. What they discovered was that some organisms used in the study thrived in an alkaline environment and formed crystalline biofilms on the catheters, while other organisms didn't have this ability.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n273431287838121/
This study sort of begs the question…perhaps some pathogens thrive in an alkaline environment, enabling biofilm formation, and other don't like an alkaline environment. Therefore, magnesium supplementation could very well be harmful in some folk and not in others, depending on their pathogen mix.
Biofilms are a real problem in some settings – urinary catheterization, longterm IVs, ear infections, cystic fibrosis, lung infections, periodontal disease, joint replacements, etc.
There is some speculation that biofilms may actually be a dual-edged sword. That is, that they afford protection to bacteria from antibacterial onslaught, but that they may also afford protection to the host from bacteria that, if released, could cause overwhelming problems. This article in the Washington Post that was included in the Spring 09 RBF eBulletin speaks to this problem:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/08/AR2009030801778.html
“University of Florida molecular biologist Tony Romeo describes the research as still in its nascent stages and said that discovering exactly why and how biofilms form is crucial.
“By understanding the factors that are needed for biofilms to develop, we hope to identify chinks in the armor that can lead to novel ways to treat or prevent such kinds of infections,” Romeo said.
But dispersing biofilms without understanding all the ramifications could be a “double-edged sword,” Romeo warned, because some bacteria in a biofilm could wreak worse havoc once they disperse.”
So my best guess is that they don't yet know which bacteria thrive in a magnesium-rich, alkaline environment and also which methods may safely disperse bio-films without causing further harm to people. Some organisms may well be sequestering magnesium and calcium from a host in order to build biofilms and others may not. Some interesting scientific breakthroughs are being made, but it may take some time to see how these finds work in-vivo and just how safe they may be. So much of this is still an unknown. 😕 Until such time as definitive answers are uncovered, as Kim says, “Whatever works!”
Peace, Maz
[user=30]lynnie_sydney[/user] wrote:
I would also be very interested to hear more about the magnesium/biofilm connection.
My AP doctor is on the fence about it. To avoid the gut, I am now doing mag IM with my b12 IM.
Both Jess and I feel a definite benefit from magnesium.
Cheryl
Count me in as a benefactor of magnesium. No magnesium, I get muscle cramps in feet and legs. Fly me around in an airplane and I get these cramps anyway. I have never hit bowel tolerance of magnesium or Vit C. I have supplemented both from the start per doctor's instructions and have done nothing but improve, so they do not seem to be hurting me.
My theory about the bugs using our mineral resources is this: If we try to withhold the minerals from the bugs, we ourselves will suffer from the deficiency and the damage caused by the deficiencies will certainly be severe. Instead, we must eat very nutritiously and supplement to boot so the extra nutrients not taken by the bugs are sufficient for our own immune systems to function.
We kill the bugs and break up biofilms through other methods.
Create a very hostile environment for these bugs by alkalizing. Hammer them further with antibiotics, anti-fungals, etc and strengthen our bodies with nutrition, exercise and rest.
Maz,
This is very interesting about the possible bad effects that can be created by breaking down the biofilms. It makes me wonder if the fact that many people develop an autoimmune disease after an injury or surgery is because they have biofilms that are damaged or weakened, releasing bacteria that were formerly trapped behind the biofilm wall. So these doctors in Phoenix that are starting a new IV protocol where the first IV is chelating agents that break down the biofilm walls are really playing with fire. Altho it stands to reason that their patients already have had damaged biofilms that have released bacteria, or they wouldn't be sick in the first place. Oi, my head is spinning, I give up!
[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:
This is very interesting about the possible bad effects that can be created by breaking down the biofilms. It makes me wonder if the fact that many people develop an autoimmune disease after an injury or surgery is because they have biofilms that are damaged or weakened, releasing bacteria that were formerly trapped behind the biofilm wall.
So these doctors in Phoenix that are starting a new IV protocol where the first IV is chelating agents that break down the biofilm walls are really playing with fire. Altho it stands to reason that their patients already have had damaged biofilms that have released bacteria, or they wouldn't be sick in the first place. Oi, my head is spinning, I give up!
Linda, I think you've touched on a very important point about all this, because what is known about Lyme, for instance, is that it can remain latent for decades and then burst forth. In my own case, I feel sure I have had Lyme for at least about 12 years, since my first known tick bite. I had strange symptoms during that time, but never made any connection to Lyme, as the tick bite was on my scalp and I never saw a rash, if indeed I did get one. Everything exploded for me when I found out my mother was dying and was gone within 5 weeks of diagnosis. Within a month of her passing, the Lyme turned into all-out RA. There is no doubt in my mind that the two are connected.
Any stressful event or prolonged period of stress puts a tremendous burden on the immune system. The chemical signaling system gets waylaid and, I think, opens the door to pre-existing bio-films to send out their frontline soldiers to launch their attack. It's possible that if everyone here was to look back on the period during which their rheumatic disease first erupted, a good number could probably pin it down to a triggering event…like a car accident, a difficult birth, a surgery, working too hard, the loss of a loved one, soldiers with PTSD (e.g. the Gulf War syndrome service people). So, yes, I really do think that pathogens that were living quite synergistically with us (existing within biofilm communities), at some point get the tip-off that it's time to come out of their proverbial closet and have their day in the sun. These bio-films are likely not just hiding one organism, but many (think “stagnant pond” and all the organisms that float around in that slimey matrix on the surface), all working and communicating with one another for their mutual survival and in their own little protected ecosystem. This is probably why we're not just talking about one organism anymore…we're talking about a multitude of organisms….some more virulent than others and conferring their various survival strategies amongst one another.
Just speculation on my part, but this may be why Low Dose Naltrexone works so well in some AI diseases. When we are stressed, perhaps one of the first chemical signallers to awry would be endorphins. It may be the actual tipping point, so to speak, and to correct this chemical imbalance in some folk may go a long way to re-setting the immune system.
As for the docs at the Envita clinic and their new IV protocol to break up bio-films…I think it's difficult to know at this stage just how this is going to pan out…both in the short and long-term. Short-term success is one thing, but we live in a pea soup of pathogens and bio-films are just something that we're going to have to co-exist with…what happens when treatment ends and, if successful, how long will it hold? So many unknowns with all this…my head spins, too, Linda! :roll-laugh:
Bio-films may, in the end, prove to be an important key to all kinds of things…like aging, opportunistic infections that take us at the ends of our lives, various cancers….essentially, bio-films may be the programmable key to extending lifespans. Finding out how to do this safely, however, may be the larger issue right now. It's an interesting field of study and one which is worth watching for sure.
Peace, Maz
These bio-films are likely not just hiding one organism, but many (think “stagnant pond” and all the organisms that float around in that slimey matrix on the surface), all working and communicating with one another for their mutual survival and in their own little protected ecosystem. This is probably why we're not just talking about one organism anymore…we're talking about a multitude of organisms….some more virulent than others and conferring their various survival strategies amongst one another.
What do you think of Dr. Fry's theory that altho there are many organisms inside of these biofilms, only one of them is responsible for most of our AI diseases?
I can pinpoint what caused my earliest symptoms as well. Other than the almost constant problems with asthma and numerous episodes of pneumonia, that is. I did have a bad tick bite when I was about 9-10. When I was 11 I joined a track team and developed what my GP called shin splints. I also did gymnastics but ultimately had to quit due to swollen wrists and neck pain. I did track again when I was 15, same problem, but add knee and ankle swelling, and finally, volleyball, with swollen ankles. It seems that whatever sport I did, the joints that got the most abuse became inflamed and tender, beyond the normal aches and pains that all athletes get. There were days when I could barely walk after practice. Our older GP chalked it up to 'weak joints', so I went undiagnosed until after the birth of my second child when I developed inflammation in many joints. I did have a few swollen joints after my first child, but it was just in a few fingers and very short-lived.
Looking at these theories about biofilms, I can see how they may have played out in my history. Constant pounding of a set of joints could break the biofilms and release the microbes into the joint. I still don't get the whole psoriasis thing where random patches of skin are affected. A common spot seems to be the navel, I've always wondered if that had anything to do with our umbilical cords; could there be pockets of biofilms passed on to the fetus thru the umbilical cord which become damaged at some time and release microbes? But why elbows and knees, 2 other common areas for psoriasis? I guess we do scrape our knees and elbows more than other places when we are children (at least before video games came along and we played OUTSIDE!!!). And why so many different AI diseases if Dr. Fry is correct and only one microorganism is responsible? Hmm, I'm not buying into that theory, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Aaannyway, I was wondering if anyone else could connect the dots between traumatic events and emergence of symptoms or locations/type of symptoms. I think we might as well go ahead and figure this out for the doctors, don't you! And I'm sorry, this topic has totally hijacked the original topic of this thread. Maybe we should start a separate thread where we can post about events/symptoms connections?
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