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I hope not. On immed.org i read something about it being in the mucus so you could pass it through that. I guess I am just pananoid . I just don't want my kids to have to suffer through this.
If you favor the auto-immune theory then you probably are not infectious and there is only very weak correlation of related family members with specifically, RA.
If you favor a bacterial etiology then you likely may infect your family, or they may have infected you, though this doesn't spread like a cold. Moreover, their is strong family aggregation for all auto-immune diseases and especially if you include some mental disorders, what Marshall calls Th1 diseases.
Then again, if the vector was ticks or insects chances are your family is exposed to the same vectors.
So maybe yes. I had RA. My wife acquired asthma about the same time. Both have vanished with AP / MP treatment. Youngest daughter successfully beat asthma with AP. Oldest daughter is treating ADD (and herxing with ADD) on the MP this summer. The evidence seems to suggest that we had some family aggregation.
But no worries. You know how to fix it.
Here is a plain English discussion on Amy Proal's web site.
http://bacteriality.com/2007/10/31/family/
john
[user=3]John McDonald[/user] wrote:
Then again, if the vector was ticks or insects chances are your family is exposed to the same vectors.
Hi John,
For some time now, the Lyme community has been arguing that Lyme can be passed via bodily fluids. I always wondered about this and was waiting for some kind of evidence.
Pam Weintraub's new book, “Cure Unknown – Behind the Lyme Epidemic” mentions the case of a Stamford, CT woman who contracted Lyme while pregnant. The baby was born with very severe problems and, though the mother kept telling her docs to investigate the possibility of Lyme, it was ultimately ruled out. She had been treated and was 'cured,' after all. The baby died shortly after birth. The mother (very brave woman) sent her baby's body to a researcher for in-depth post-mortem study. Although spirochetes weren't found on blood serology, they were found in other tissues of the baby, wreaking their havoc and being missed entirely by the treating doctors.
Evidence seems to be emerging that cross-placental (maternal blood to fetus blood) transmission of the spirochete may be possible. Recent 3-D imaging done by Canadian researchers have been able to take live in-vivo footage of spirochetes in mice, as they bore through the blood vessels and exit the blood stream to invade surrounding tissues.
The spirochete is a corkskrew-type bacterium that seems to have this ability to 'drill' through human tissue. That said, mycoplasma is a very different type of organism, but if this new imaging technology is used for other types of pathogens, science may soon be visualising how other pathogens move through the body, too.
I'm still sort of boggled by all this and working out what to make of it.
Peace, Maz
Garth Nicholson about CFS, Gulf War Syndrom and Trevor Marshall re: Th1 say much the same thing. I think Lida Mattman agreed as well. It makes sense, if it is bacteria is communicable in some way. The anectdotal proof for me is the extremely high prevalance of other auto-immune diseases among family members on Bulletin Boards just like this one. I don't really care about spirochetes per se. Marshall thinks they are simply co-infections like Babesia that are the result of a previously compromised immune system and he may be right. I don't worry about spirochetes vs. other bacteria because the MP seems to work equally well and very, very similarly for lyme, CFS, sarc, RA and all of these diseases so I think they must be more alike than different.
john
I share your concerns. I have 3 boys and they all have developed psoriasis. I have psoriatic arhtritis, which a small percentage of people with psoriasis develop about 5-10 yrs after the skin lesions appear. I've had PsA for over 20 yrs, but I have a sister who is 47 and has just been diagnosed with PsA. We rarely see each other and we don't share food or drinks when we do, just hugs. There's got to be some genetic component here as well; neither of my parents has any kind of autoimmune disease, but I have a great grandmother who had RA.
As for giving it to your children if it is communicable, of course it's possible. But before you start feeling guilty, remember that 50% of the population carry mycoplasmas. That includes your children's teachers, friends, coaches, etc. It's out there, so unless we put our kids in a sterile bubble, they're going to encounter mycoplasmas and other microbes that are associated with these diseases. The good news, as John stated, it that we can prevent our children from having to suffer because we know about AP and we can treat them at the very beginning of the onset of the disease, when AP is the most effective.
linda
[user=3]John McDonald[/user] wrote:
I don't really care about spirochetes per se. Marshall thinks they are simply co-infections like Babesia that are the result of a previously compromised immune system and he may be right. I don't worry about spirochetes vs. other bacteria because the MP seems to work equally well and very, very similarly for lyme, CFS, sarc, RA and all of these diseases so I think they must be more alike than different.
John, I'm with you in many respects…to a large degree the organisms are alike in a “lumper” kind of way and they all seem to have these pleomorphic characteristics. However, if some of the more recent research that is being done on the Lyme spirochete is right, these organisms have the ability to morph into a dormant cyst form, which no amount of antibiotics can can touch. These things can remain in this sleeper form for very long periods of time, only to revert back to spirochetal form when the conditions suit. So in a “splitter” kind of way there is at least one distinct difference with this particular organism – the Lyme spirochete – because…again, if LLMDs are right….this cystic requires totally different medications….the so-called cyst busters….Flagyl, Plaquenil and the like.
Peace, Maz
Lymies are always, always, always convinced that they are special.:) It is a peculiar religion. And I say that from the point of view that I may well have contracted my disease from a tick. How could I ever prove that I didn't? I just don't think it matters. TM argues that the immune system can take out all sorts of interlopers if only it is healthy. The immune system is amazingly robust if only the components haven't been compromized. Antimicrobial peptides, the body's own anti-biotic are incredibly effective if only the cells are allowed to transcribe them. We don't need antibiotics if our immune system is working. So the cysts and their antibiotic resistance may not be that important after all. Again, his argument is that the spirochetes gained access precisely because the immune cells are parasitized. Moreover, exactly what is the difference between a bacterial L-form and a cyst? They sound remarkably similar to me. Now whether it is a truly epiphanous lyme spirochete or some other CWD-bacteria is all a story, all hypotheses to me until proven in the lab, but as good or rather a better story than the hopeless auto-immune hypothesis. Don't be so quick to split Maz. You are special, very special, but not because of your spirochetes.
[user=3]John McDonald[/user] wrote:
We don't need antibiotics if our immune system is working. So the cysts and their antibiotic resistance may not be that important after all……Moreover, exactly what is the difference between a bacterial L-form and a cyst? They sound remarkably similar to me.
Ha! I suppose you have a point there about Lymie's believing they're “unique” and getting all “religious” about it, although in much the same way, MP, a “living experiment” in progress, could also be placed in the same sort of cult-like box. it's adherants similarly religious. 😉 Perhaps, truth be told, there is an element of fervance that is created when one is trying to be understood and have a point of view heard, whatever the proclivity.
What holds much promise in the Lyme world is that there is now a tremendous focus being placed on innovative research that holds the potential for benefiting us all. So, keeping current on this and being open to what may evolve with regard to these findings could well provide some additional, very valuable keys for all chronic, infectious forms of disease. The pressure that the Lyme community has placed on the 'powers that be' is starting to pay off in small increments, simply by virtue of the fact that it won't 'shut up' and this is forcing researchers to take a second glance at what was always the accepted paradigm, dictated by a few that clearly have vested interests in their viewpoint being preserved…i.e. that Lyme is a self-limiting disease and easily treated. It's clear this isn't the case, at least for 20% of people who reach the chronic stage. So maybe there is actually some value in Lymies and their rootin'-tootin' splittin' ways?
While I also feel sure that TM is on the money – that a healthy immune system can tackle a resurgence of most types of infection – what is at issue with the cystic form of Lyme is that it remains dormant until such time as the immune system becomes compromised, yet again, sometimes decades later…shock, prolonged stress, illness…all things that a healthy immune system can't predict, much as with initial chronic disease states. So, the spirochete awakens from its cystic shell and immediately resumes where it left off, taking advantage of the situation. Further, what is now known about the spirochete is that in its active form, it has the ability to change its outer surface proteins so swiftly and adeptly that by the time the “otherwise healthy, but now temporarily compromised immune system” has a chance to react and produce the requisite antibody to assume its attack, it arrives at its destination only to find that the invader has 'disappeared'. It's now donned a new outer surface protein (OSP) cloak….millions of OSP permutations, by some estimates, and something even the healthiest of immune systems has trouble confronting. It's for this very reason that Pam Weintraub called her book, “Cure Unknown,” because although longterm antibiotics may assist in suppressing the infection to such a degree that the immune system can recoup and take over, it's never fully eradicated from the body and this cystic form presents an added dimension.
In this regard, while TM's theories and promises of “cure” are convincing, I wonder what would happen if, down the road, his own sarcoidosis could be reactivated under just the right circumstances and his immune system was, once again, severely compromised. Not saying TM'sSarcoidosis was caused by Lyme, but it is a well-known manifestation of Lyme and, therefore, possible. As such, MP may have to remain in the “experimental” realms until one or two generations of its proponents has 'been and gone' and enough is known about subsequent relapse potentials during the course of a lifetime.
With regard to L-Forms and Cystic Forms, my limited understanding of these is that there are quite distinct differences, though possibly similar in shape (spherical). Lyme L-Forms, also known as “spheroplasts,” are cell-wall deficients, intracellular with only an outer lipid layer, but still actively carrying out the necessary processes to maintain life. Whereas, in contrast, the cystic form is more virus-like in that is has a resistant, hard outer surface; “shell-like.” While the L-Form likely continues some form of metabolic functioning (still feeding and producing wastes/toxins though probably in a more limited way as compared to active infection), the cyst form is said to go into a complete dormancy, a self-sustaining, hibernation state. Without any form of parasitic functioning going on within the body, the immune guard's defenses to it also go into a period of quiescense. That's about the extent of what I know.
Patti – my Lyme sista! You're such a treasure here on this BB….and, yes, John, you are, too! I think we should all hold hands and say, “We are all One happy family” (in the “lumpy” sense – hehe ), but it's also a good thing to have a bit of color and diversity shared, now and again…in the “spitter” sense. It keeps all our religious or cultish tendencies in check and, besides, life would get way too boring!
In the spirit of keeping an open mind and ever more learning…
Peace, Maz
… MP, a “living experiment” in progress, could be placed in the same sort of cult-like box.
Yeah! Strong charismatic controlling leader? Adoring acolytes? Controversial? I sometimes speak about it being my particular kool-aid. Some of us are old enough to recall the reference. But so far it is working well for me. Right now I am very happy with that kool aid.
Sarcoidosis is a well-known manifestation of Lyme.
As is every other symptom of every other auto-immune disease. Every other. This is what I am trying to say. How could I ever prove my former RA and my current incipeint alzheimers or whatever I am neuro-herxing away isn't from a tick bite? Why would I bother unless I desperately needed to name it so and join that community? How many times have we said that if your lyme test isn't positive then you used the wrong one. Why? So you can take the lyme protocol. Hmmm. Sounds like the D metabolites to me. Might as well just pick the protocol that you like and try it and skip the test or the naming of the condition. If you like it then stick with it. If you don't then try a different protocol. The only real reason to name these things is so you can convince someone to Rx the desired meds.
And yes, I am glad that the Lyme consituency is quite verbal tho I often wonder if that isn't part of the well known symptom described as lyme rage. I've had a bit of that too. Should I join?
I hope you understand that I am funnin ya just a little bit. I am very much a lumper in this instance until I see something that really sets lyme apart from, oh, say, sarc. It was Lyme Arthritis before they found the spirochete. But what if Burgdorffer (sp?) found Babesia first and decided that was the culprit? Would Lyme then be a parasitic disease instead of a bacterial infection and would the spirochetes be labeled a co-infection to the primary? See, as of now no one including TM knows which is the cart or horse, though they all say they know.
[user=3]John McDonald[/user] wrote:
I am very much a lumper in this instance until I see something that really sets lyme apart from, oh, say, sarc. It was Lyme Arthritis before they found the spirochete. But what if Burgdorffer (sp?) found Babesia first and decided that was the culprit? Would Lyme then be a parasitic disease instead of a bacterial infection and would the spirochetes be labeled a co-infection to the primary? See, as of now no one including TM knows which is the cart or horse, though they all say they know.
Well, what 'might' set Lyme apart are new studies (according to my LLMD) that have shown that a new'er' tetracycline, Tigecycline (dispensed currently only by IV in hospital settings for particularly virulent infections) is able to kill the spirochete in vitro. This has never been possible before with the other tetracyclines, which only suppress it or cause it to revert to cystic form. This hasn't yet been established with mycoplasma….though may be possible.
What you describe above is exactly what LLMDs are trying to elucidate on. That is, that Lyme is not just Bb…it's a conglomeration of Bb and other infections or, in some instances, no Bb, but other types of infections. In other words, the current IDSA definition has always been way to restrictive and excluding vast numbers of chronic sufferers who happen to present in other ways…not necessarily “Montawk knee” or Lyme arthritis, but any number of organ, neurologic or musculo-skeletal manifestations. It's just a real shame that all these infections get lumped under the one umbrella, namely the “Lyme Disease” label, because this just adds to the confusion…different organisms that need different treatments, as it appears TM is in agreement…hence the combo approach employed. However, that said, the spirochete is somewhat unique and peculiar, because of this resistant cystic form and requiring cyst-busting meds….”special,” if you will. 😉 Babesia is also somewhat “special,” requiring anti-protozoals, not antibiotics, at all. I suspect these are considerations that non-responders of any “chronic cult” – Lyme, AP, MP, Stratton/Wheldon, etc, may wish to explore further.
Peace, Maz (Ommmmmmmmmmmm :roll-laugh:)
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