A too-little-covered topic

[A Friend]

Hello Everyone,

The following site was accidentally discovered, but the topics relate to many of us and our diagnoses (especially TMJ — possibly a presenting symptom — and Vitamin K Deficiencies which we may not realize can result from being on abx) which we've heard too little about and appears to me to be information seldom presented on our BB and elsewhere in our reading. 
 
Clicking on the list of links below has proved very interesting — especially in light of the chronic nosebleeds I experienced all during November 2008, necessitating going to the ER at 6 am, and other days to my ENT physician. (The remedies for this did not come from either of these two places, but FINALLY from a search in November that found someone who'd had this condition since the age of 10 and found a solution for his own nosebleeds (which, by the way, agree with this site I JUST found!).   
 
Because of having had TMJ as a presenting factor a number of years ago, and a presumed Connective Tissue Disorder after two years of treatment (with 10 days of RX abx every 6-8 weeks and NO PROBIOTICS known about, this link definitely caught my eye). 
 
I've left out some of the links (that are very important also), but when you click on the first link, all of the others will be available to you, as well. 
 
http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html
 
http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html#how
 
http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html#vitamin
 
http://www.ctds.info/acidic-foods.html
 
http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html

[Edit: July 16, 2009:  In the last link above, I clicked on Edit, then Find, and did a Vitamin K search — to see why I had included this under the Vit K info.  I only looked at the first “find”, and it was that Vit K deficiency is linked to hardening of tissues (already I've forgotten the exact wording, but trust me, Vit K is very, very important.  Also, Froggy, I noticed you mentioned you'd had a bleeding problem in childhood.  I have some excellent info I found when I developed severe nosebleeds that took me to the ER.  Will share them if you'd like. af]
 
 [Edit:  Adding this one.  Am wondering if these type calcium deposits are the type some of you post about on fingers and hands????]
http://www.ctds.info/calcium-deposits.html

AF
 

[louris]

Thanks for highlighting.  A former chiropractor stressed to me the importance of Vitamin K in bone health and blood clotting.  We hear a lot about Calcium, Magnesium, and Vitamin D regarding bone health (and don't get me wrong — they are all important), but Vitamin K is oft overlooked.

[Parisa]

Thanks for posting this!

[lynnie_sydney]

Thanks A Friend for posting these. I wonder if that might explain why I have an ongoing craving for bananas? Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[A Friend]

[user=290]louris[/user] wrote:

Thanks for highlighting.  A former chiropractor stressed to me the importance of Vitamin K in bone health and blood clotting.  We hear a lot about Calcium, Magnesium, and Vitamin D regarding bone health (and don't get me wrong — they are all important), but Vitamin K is oft overlooked.

…..”oft overlooked,”  especially by those of us taking abx, because our needed AP is said to affect our Vitamin K, and our absorption of foods containing it. 

I first remember reading about Vitamin K loss in the book, “What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause” by Dr. John R. Lee.   I believe he was addressing bone health and density in men and women.  In this book, he wrote about the importance of Vitamin K and that if we take abx, we need to pay attention to our Vitamin K, and told how it related to bone health.  

AF

[A Friend]

Lynnie,
About your craving bananas — could be you're craving the minerals, etc. from them.  Or, could be your gremlins are wanting the high sugar content of them.  I've read our “inhabitants” are smart that way, and can make us crave what they need.  Regardless of the answer, I just have to have a peanut butter/banana sandwich every now and then on a good grain bread!
😛
AF

[lynnie_sydney]

Who really knows AF? Could be anything you mention. However, I have one organic banana (no insect sprays used) every morning sliced on my non-gluten, no-dairy, no preservative etc etc bowl of muesli. Lynnie 

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[mommaof2princesses]

A Friend

We are actually studying Vitamin K in my nutrition class and it was stated in my textbook that Vitamin K deficiency can be caused by long-term antibiotic use (as you stated) I am glad that you brought it up! Vitamin K is obtained from intestinal bacteria which is one of many reasons why probiotics are so important! (it is also the reason that newborns are given a dose of vitamin K right after birth as they are born with a sterile intestinal tract and the bacteria that promote the vitamin K take weeks to become established, so newborns are given a single dose of vitamin K at birth to prevent hemorrhage (vitamin K's main role in the body is to help synthesize proteins that help clot the blood).Here is a paragraph from my text regarding anyone on blood thinners:

“Some people with heart problems need to prevent the formation of clots within their circulatory system. One of the best known medeicines for this purpose is warfarin, which interfere's with vitamin K's clot-promoting action . Vitamin K therapy may be needed for people on warfarin if uncontrollable bleeding should occur. People taking warfarin who self-prescribe Vitamin K supplements risk interfering with the action of the drug” (Sizer et al, p. 234, 2008).

I am not a Dr, just a student 🙂  but from the reading I have done  if any of you are on these types of medication it would probably be a good idea to discuss the Vitamin K supplement with your Physician and not to self-treat this one…

[mommaof2princesses]

Lynnie,

Hi there! Bananas are good sources of potassium (422 mg per whole banana to be exact). Perhaps you are low in that? Symptoms of Potassium deficiency are muscle weakness, paralysis, and confusion. Some of the functions of potassium are: maintains normal fluid and electrolyte balance, facilitates chemical reactions, supports cell integrity assists in nerve functioning and muscle contractions.

I have been learning so much about supplements. It stated in my textbook that it is far better to get your vitamins and minerals from whole foods as your body knows how to process them so there is no immenent danger of toxicity. The effects of toxicity from taking too high of a dose of supplements of fat soluble vitamins such as A,D,E,K  on the body can be fatal in some cases and even the water soluble vitamins such as B and C can be a huge waste of your money if you are taking too much you are just eliminating it from your body, unused. (I have even read that potassium injected into a vein in an adult can stop the heart!) So I would advise anyone who wants to use supplements to work with a physician, or a dietician who is experienced. Otherwise just try to get as many of these nutrients from the foods that you eat as possible.

[lynnie_sydney]

Thanks momma. Yes,  I will keep on having my daily sliced (organic) banana! And I am working with the naturopath that works hand-in-hand with my AP doc on my overall diet. Lynnie  

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[mommaof2princesses]

It is amazing to me that there is so much involved in getting better it is a full time job in itself just the research!!!!:shock:

[A Friend]

More new information for this topic

Found an unexpected important tidbit on Vitamin K:

http://www.metametrixinstitute.org/?tag=/cardiovascular+disease
On this site, once you are there, there is a video link to a short explanation of Vitamin K function, and how it affects the health of our bones… not just blood coagulation.  We on AP need to be aware of  this information.  It seems simple enough — according to what was said — to take care to prevent problems in this area, which also is preventive for osteoporosis as well. 

Vitamin K function explained
Wednesday, 8 October 2008 15:29 by eredmond
The role of vitamin K extends well beyond the regulation of blood clotting to impact bone formation, the development of heart disease, and possibly cancer. Vitamin K is required for the carboxylation of osteocalcin (OC) which is needed to bind calcium. When vitamin K is low, OC does not get car… [More]

AF

[casey]

Just wondering if anyone has come across any articles about spider angiomas/telangiactis and vit K? My son developed a spider angioma ( dilated blood vessel)on his nose the past yr. He was also taking serrapeptase close to that time so i am wondering the link,if any, between  these blood vessels , vit K for clotting and serrapeptase for sticky blood. Maybe blood was thinning due to serrapeptase and vit K was depleting so result could be angioma???? Any thoughts?

Will be having vit K and fibrigin tests done soon but wondering if there is a possible link.

Also am wondering something . If  serrapeptase is used for sticky blood and vit k is a coagulant so to speak, would that not suggest the 2 cotraindict each other or am i on the wrong track in understanding this?

AF, my son was also was prone to getting nosebleeds in his younger days but that was before AP. Thanks for the info on this subject because something is telling me there is  a link here.

thanks,

Casey

[jaminhealth]

One our holistic docs in our town recently lectured on the importance of Vit K with our Vit D.  So now I take K2 with my Vit D3.  100 mcg of K2.  Along with 500 mg of Calcium from Rainbow Light. 

Designs for Health has a Vit D with K in it.  There may be others. 

 

[A Friend]

[user=970]jaminhealth[/user] wrote:

One our holistic docs in our town recently lectured on the importance of Vit K with our Vit D.  So now I take K2 with my Vit D3.  100 mcg of K2.  Along with 500 mg of Calcium from Rainbow Light. 

Designs for Health has a Vit D with K in it.  There may be others. 

 

jaminhealth,

I've come to believe that supplementing D may be unnecessary and even bad for me/us; and that calcium supplementation may unnecessary, if we consume a reasonable amount of calcium in our diet (vegetables can even be a good source of calcium, as well as foods like cottage cheese, quality yogurt, etc). (Look at elephants and other large mammals; they eat grass, and look how big and strong they are.

What I've learned has made me understand/believe that when we take calcium supplements, these may even be contributing to an even greater magnesium deficiency than we have already (which is usually very mag deficient by the time we are chronically ill) and further deplete our bone density, because when we eat sufficient foods with calcium and then additionally take calcium supplements, a large amount of magnesium must be pulled from somewhere in our bodies to complement the actions of calcium…. the calcium opens up channels in the body, and magnesium is needed to close the channels when the calcium exits.  If we do not have enough magnesium, the  calcium cannot exit and have magnesium “close the door,” leaving calcium in the channels to “calcify.”   

I'm going to “send” this now (so I won't lose it), and then come back and click the edit button and “paste” some references I'm read to support the above statements. 

AF

Edit/ added:  These are several links from the Selig book, for those who may be interested in reading more researched/written about in it.  (I must admit:  finding these made me a bit “daffy” and wore me out; and now I have to have my Sunday afternoon nap! 😉  AF

http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter11.shtml

 
Excerpt: 
Largely disregarded in the treatment of bone disease is the possibility that some of the therapeutic agents (used to increase bone mineralization) might adversely affect bone metabolism by causing loss of skeletal magnesium. Calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D all increase magnesium requirements; the intakes of all have been rising during this century, while that of magnesium has been falling.
 
 
http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter3.shtml
Excerpt [problems that can arise with mother and infant during pregnancy and upon delivery]: 
Consideration of Magnesium Deficiency in Perinatal Hormonal and Mineral Imbalances [/size%;”>
In view of the evidence that inadequate magnesium intake is common during pregnancy and that the plasma levels of magnesium tend to fall, especially during the first and third trimesters of pregnancy even when corrected for hemodilution, it is not surprising that neonatal magnesium deficiency can create problems. Until relatively recent years, however, measurement of magnesium levels in infants was rare. Cord blood analyses, done at intervals since 1923 (Table 3-1) and (Table 3-1 continued) showed wide ranges reported in individual studies, even when the quite reliable old precipitation methods or the more reliable modem procedures were employed. Since individual maternal status and infant status were not designated in most instances, these wide ranges are difficult to interpret. Low levels may have reflected maternal and fetal insufficiency; high levels may have reflected magnesium therapy for preeclampsia. Mean values are even more difficult to evaluate. Determination of serum or plasma magnesium levels of the infant at birth or within hours thereafter presents more problems. Intrauterine asphyxia, difficulties in delivery, or other causes of birth hypoxia or acidosis, and hyperosmolality can all contribute to elevations of serum magnesium levels as the cellular magnesium is released to the extracellular fluid, changes similar to those seen with surgical and other traumatic shock and hypoxic conditions. Such infants have been found to have a negative correlation between their serum magnesium levels and their Apgar scores (Engel and Elm, 1970; Jukarainen, 1974). Infants who are hypermagnesemic when born shortly after their eclamptic mothers had received pharmacologic parenteral doses of magnesium also are likely to be depressed and have low Apgar scores. The first group of infants is likely to be cellularly depleted of magnesium, which becomes manifest as hypomagnesemia, usually by the fifth day of life.
[/size]
http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter13.shtml
Excerpt: 

http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter1.shtml
Excerpt (a bit longer excerpt, but all of this is worth reading):

Magnesium plays an important role in maintaining the integrity of the myocardium, kidneys, and bone. Its deficiency has been shown to cause cardiomyopathy in several animal species, and to intensify myocardial lesions caused by a variety of modalities. Its deficiency has caused arteriosclerosis and has intensified formation of atheromata, or arteriosclerosis, thrombosis, and even myocardial infarction, induced by atherogenic diets, high intakes of vitamin D, calcium, phosphate, and fat. Its deficiency has caused renal lesions and intensified damage produced by vitamin D, calcium, and phosphate. And its deficiency has been implicated in some forms of bone damage. Magnesium supplementation has prevented or reversed some of the lesions in the experimental models and been used clinically in cardiovascular disease and urolithiasis.

(Fig. 1-2)]. [Bold & underlined emphasis added by AF] The rise in vitamin D intake began when the addition to each quart of milk of a sufficient amount (400 IU) to cure, rather than merely to prevent, rickets became widespread from the mid 1930s and was made mandatory in most states from the 1940s to 1950, either replacing cod liver oil, or taken in addition to it (Baldwin, 1953; Seelig, 1969b, 1970b). Fortification of many foods in addition to milk, including milk flavoring, oleomargarine, breakfast cereals, or “substitutes,” led the Committee on Nutrition of the American Academy of Pediatrics to express concern about the total daily intake of vitamin D in the United States, which they calculated might range from 600 to 4000 IU/day from marketed fortified products (Table 1-1). A survey of 1000 Canadian children from 1 week to 51/2 years of age showed that 70% consumed more than 400 IU, and 30% consumed over 1000 IU of vitamin D daily (Broadfoot et al., 1972). Table 1-2 depicts the sources of vitamin D among those receiving over 1000 to 1800 IU of vitamin D per day. The major source of phosphorus derives from soft drinks that contain phosphoric acid, the consumption of which has been rising markedly in the last quarter of a century (Henderson, 1972; Lutwak 1974).

Although it is generally believed that the rise in blood lipids is due to increased intakes of saturated fats during this century, and that sugar consumption has also increased substantially, comparison of per capita intakes from 1909 to 1965 shows relatively minor changes (Fig. 1-3). The average daily fat intake rose from 112 to 132, but most of the increase has been in unsaturated fatty acids. The total carbohydrate intake dropped from 492 to 374, so that the greater percentage increase of sugar in 1965 reflects an increase of about 40 grams daily. Probably the sugar intake has risen more since the 1965 value (Fig. 1-2) among those who drink larger quantities of sugar-sweetened, phosphorus-containing soft drinks.

http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter8.shtml
 
http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/chapter12.shtml
Excerpt:

12

Abnormal Bone in Magnesium Deficiency

Bone-wasting diseases that are resistant to physiologic doses of vitamin D, calcium, or phosphate and that have been treated with pharmacologic doses of each or of combinations of mineralizing agents, are likely to be associated with magnesium deficiency. In some instances, initial magnesium inadequacy might be contributory to the osteopenia, as in hyperparathyroidism, secondary to malabsorption, with hemodialysis with low-magnesium water, or possibly in pregnancy. There is suggestive evidence that severe magnesium depletion (in utero), alone or with hypervitaminosis D, might participate in abnormal fetal bone formation that might find expression as fractures of low-birth-weight infants, osteogenesis imperfecta, or hypophosphatasia. In infancy and later in life, vitamin-D- or parathyroid-refractory osteomalacia or hypocalcemia might also have magnesium depletion as a contributory factor. Failure to correct the magnesium deficiency before use of calcemic therapy has failed to correct hypocalcemia. In those with osteopenia (to which magnesium deficiency has contributed), failure to correct that deficit before starting aggressive mineralizing therapy intensifies the imbalance. [Unlined emphasis added by AF] 

 

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