what is MP?

[John McDonald]

Donna, if you buy the idea of a bacterial, mycoplasma type etiology then it follows that your gut should also be badly infected. The class of mycobacteria, mycoplasma and CWD bacteria that are alleged to be the source of these diseases must have a host cell to parasitize, and through a million years of evolution they seem to prefer macrophages and nutrophils. These are the same white blood cells that are tasked with ingesting and destroying these microbes. You can see the process in this web illustration here on tuberculosis, another of this class of microbes: http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~terry/Common/phago053.html (click on the TB link). Think of it as a Trojan Horse strategy. The bacteria waits to be ingested and then somehow releases a protein or switch that disables the destruction sequence that normally follows ingestion. Once inside the microbe is now taking up residence and erecting kitchen curtains inside the most destructive immune cell in our body. It is as if Al Qaeda is moving into US Army tanks. The immune system has a hard time attacking them when they are in there. My point though is that our gut is rich with macrophages for obvious reasons. It is our first line of defense to keep the outside out and the inside safe. So it follows that if our macrophages have been compromised anywhere they are likely to be compromised badly in the gut. Whether that is true or not, it is true enough that just about everyone with a rheumatic disease has GI issues of one kind or another. I had increasingly worse food intolerances before I was diagnosed with RA and then I had chronic constipation that lasted right through my antibiotic remission 3 years later. I also acquired a yeast problem AFTER I achieved antibiotic remission when I slipped up on probiotics and excess sugar consumption. But about 6 months after starting another antibiotic protocol I found that along with other things my gut magically cleared, constipation, food intolerances and yeast susceptibility. I found I don't need probiotics anymore and haven't used any for 2.5 years now even though I still take antibiotics. So my point is that if you buy the bacterial etiology then gut issues make sense. These are part of your disease and with persistance and attention you can cure this as well.

Incidentally, there is an university immunology text by Janeway available from Amazon that will detail this mycoplasma to macrophage relationship if you are curious. I picked up a used copy. Happily it has illustrations.

Good luck,

john

[Donna927]

Thanks John.

I loved the sound effects:D

I am sure everyone has some form of gut issues though.. look at the American diet and the toxins in that.

I am thinking a fresh and healthy super immune menu
(extra immune… my vita shakes with kelp:), etc..

cant that help or will it hurt those bacteria..
hmm

I will get that book.

Thanks:)

[John McDonald]

Donna – It is if you buy the bacterial source. If you don't then what I said doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As most that fequent here know I have been perversely focused on bacteria since I learned of AP, and especially since I started MP. But if the weight of medical degrees means anything (?) then by that evidence at least, bacterial etiology is unpopular. One researcher told me “we have looked, they aren't there”. I figure a million bucks in a properly equipped 21st century lab with genomic sequencing tools would settle it but I can't find my million, maybe under the couch cushions. But not long ago some researchers in the UK identified of all things, Thermal Vent Bacteria by PCR techniques on failed hip protheses:

[align=left]Research article:

Identification of bacteria on the surface of clinically infected and non-infected prosthetic hip joints removed during revision arthroplasties by 16S rRNA gene sequencing and by microbiological culture. Kate E Dempsey1, Marcello P Riggio1, Alan Lennon1, Victoria E Hannah1, Gordon Ramage1, David Allan2 and Jeremy Bagg1 1Infection and Immunity Research Group, Level 9, Glasgow Dental Hospital & School, 378 Sauchiehall Street, Glasgow G2 3JZ, UK 2The Queen Elizabeth National Spinal Injuries Unit, Scotland…[/align]

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[align=left]Has anyone considered exactly what happens when we add 4 billion bacteria to our gut? Are they so benign? I know there was a long period when I did just that, and I think to my advantage. Now though it makes me shudder to think about deliberately adding bacteria to my body. Is it just common sense that we need probiotics?[/align]
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[Cheryl F]

[user=3]John McDonald[/user] wrote:

[align=left]Has anyone considered exactly what happens when we add 4 billion bacteria to our gut? Are they so benign?[/align]

How about 60 Billion. Or 360 Billion.  Jess' doc recommends that she take 6 60 Billion Ultra Flora IB a day.  HUM???

Just food (or bugs) for thought…

Cheryl

[John McDonald]

LOL – at that dose they are food. How many calories is that? But the common wisdom, whatever that is and 'so to speak' is that these are good bacteria and they are good for our immune system. But good ole TM, the original 'the emperor has no clothes' guy, says they may work by so challenging our macrophages that we can no longer mount an immune response to whatever it was that was causing our problems. That is, 60 billion bacteria may stop inflammation where it is needed to fight existing infection by consuming all of our immune resources to challenge them. That sounds eerily familiar, like prednisone or TM's vitamin D hypothesis. So if something works we conclude it must be helping and indeed in the short term it is. But now I am called to wonder about this. And there is that little tidbit from 21st century microbiology that says bacteria can near instantly share genetic information through horizontal transfer. So yesterday's benign bacteria can overnight become tomorrow's nightmare. Bad! What is a sickie to do?

If I had it to do over again I would still take probiotics during my early AP because whatever dubious gain or harm therein may be much less than systemic yeast infection. But it is something to think about.

[Donna927]

I think it is the food:) and what research has been done about stress and RA and don't laugh.. what about crying???
it is healing …and if we have RA or something else.. we all have something to cry about….
or maybe I can't seem to settle in on this bacteria portion of it. I think I feel like a core connection ( the trigger ) was more emotional or stress related… and if you can heal the gut with the nutrition minus the antibiotic..(heal faster to my way of thinking) with minimum probiotics and more power foods. etcs..

less gut damage less toxins released into the blood stream….
and then if we can reach to that spiritual portion of health… the core of us… not talking all sorts of religion here… but what we breathe, our environment, our love an intimate relationships, dancing, enjoying hobbies.. etc,
for me it is about finding this pain and feeling it…..

It sounds crazy but that locus of control… the core… I may look into yoga …
dancing, massage!! journaling..
To me.. i honestly believe you could heal yourself if you let your feelings
open up and face fear…of course since I went to CA.. I am so relieved to know we have supporters of that hope with some added brillance to boot;)
But still not 100% sold…still because I need to keep doing the trials and errors, reading and learning, etc…
wait till that vitamix comes…I will be going green and greener with immunity
I already utilized a blue algae body mud massage…and my skin is glowing
The probiotics kind of gross me out a bit..but if they help I suppose and
no one will see them…
It is all very interested how so much science has been done on all these bugs….whatever can help.

[Cheryl F]

[user=550]Donna927[/user] wrote:

I can't seem to settle in on this bacteria portion of it. I think I feel like a core connection ( the trigger ) was more emotional or stress related…

Donna, what you say makes perfect sense.  It is well known that stress and emotions affect immune function.  So, I think that the stress trigger goes hand in hand with the infectious trigger theory.

Just my 2 cents!

Cheryl

[lynnie_sydney]

Donna – I think you are wise to focus on your gut also. My AP Doc says that all people with long term chronic disease have leaky gut. If you are under DR F, then you should have confidence that he will help work with you to get you well without tearing up your gut. However, if you want to go further down the dietary/gut healing road, I'd be looking at testing gluten and dairy free, sulphates/sulphites-free (preservatives are becoming an enormous problem re sensitivities), upping your vegetable intake and cutting down on fruit, especially citrus. Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

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