what is MP?

[Silvia]

sorry for my ignorance, but on many threads people talk about MP and being in certain phases of it.  What is MP vs. AP?  I looked in FAQ and could not find this acronym.

 I'm impatiently waiting for some sign that the AP is working, so far nothing, I know it's early.  I started mino mid june for 2 weeks, then did 5 days of IV clinda, then continued with the mino 100 mg MWF.  I'm going to Europe mid september, I'd love to be able to walk without the constant pain in my foot!  Does anyone have any thoughts on doing another round of IV clinda, say in another month or so (so about 3 months from the first one).  When I spoke to Dr. S to get the dosages, he said that often his patients come back every 6 months or so.

Best wishes for recovery to all!  take care,  Silvia

[Cheryl F]

Silvia,

The MP stands for the Marshall Protocol.  The best way to learn more would be to do a Google search on “Marshall Protocol.” 

Basically, it is a variation of an antibiotic protocol with very specific dosing of multiple antibiotics.  Additionally, the common blood pressure medication, Benicar, is used along with the avoidance of vitamin D.  The Marshall Protocol website has all the information you would need to understand how to undertake this specific protocol.

Good luck!

Cheryl Ferguson

[Silvia]

Hello Cheryl:

thanks for the info.  I read some of the documentation, and it sounds a little scary, lots of “rules” of what one must do and not do.  From reading other threads, it sounds like quite a number of members are trying it.  Is it a matter of choosing one protocol over the other, or do people start with AP and then move to MP if they don't get the expected results?   thanks!  Silvia

[Cheryl F]

Silvia,

This is my “take” on the MP decision making process, I think the people who choose MP are swayed by the “science” behind it and after studying the information, it makes sense to them.  The MP claims to “cure” Th1 disease.  AP does not claim to be a “cure.”  There are studies that show AP “works” but it is not clear what the “mechanism of action” is.  There are many anecdotal success stories for AP helping patients to recover from rheumatic illness, but little strict science on how it works.  Many believe that AP addresses an underlying infectious trigger, others believe that the antibiotics used have immuno-suppressive and anti-inflammatory properties. 

There are clearly people who feel strongly about their opinion on both sides of the MP fence.  I think it is just something that you need to look into if you are interested in it, and then decide for yourself. 

On this bulletin board and in the testimonials for the RBF website, we have seen many people experience a full or near full remission on only minocycline.  Some are even able to maintain long term remissions after discontinuing the antibiotic.  Then others have undertaken a combination antibiotic treatment, still others have needed to significantly address their diet to achieve remission.  I personally think it is a very individualized program.  In my personal situation, my daughter experienced a near full reversal of a fast moving case of scleroderma on Minocin alone.  Yet, I continued to read and then decided that I wanted to pursue a combination antibiotic treatment, that was just my personal choice. 

My recommendation, I think that you should learn as you go and adjust your protocol (with the support of your physician of course).  Learn what various protocols are being used and recommended by the physicians that others on this forum see.  Then, look into it, and if that makes sense to you, ask for it and discuss it with your doctor.  For example, on this board, I learned that many of the AP doctors were doing a combination of Minocin and Zith, so I asked Jess' doctor for Zith.  I have also learned that some AP doctors use intermittent doses of Flagyl, Jess did that for awhile.  Again, this was after she was nearly fully recovered, no symptoms left that were impacting her full and active life.

In your case, it is probably much too soon to tell, but it is a good time to keep learning so you can get the most out of this treatment and learn the opportunities to tailor it to meet your individual situation.

Good Luck!

Cheryl
 

 

[Michele]

Hi Sylvia,

Being one of those that moved from AP to MP I can give you my short list of reasons why…but it is a pretty complicated story for the long description.

Once my IGeneX tests returned with positive bands of lyme, my PCP felt like MP would treat RA and Lyme and was willing to help me join the MP clinical study. I am his first patient on it. We are both pleased with how it's progressing so far, though I'm not very far along yet.

Knowing I had a couple positive bands of lyme, I would have elected to seek out a LLMD for additional input. So with my own local doctor agreeing to help me on a protocol that treated both illnesses, I was really thrilled.

He knew my blood tests had responded positively to the AP, but that I was really struggling with hypersensitivity. Benicar has really assisted me to tolerate mino. I'm up to 75 mg now and couldn't tolerate 3 mg on AP alone.

The MP is a lot more complicated, and it is helping me to get my life back. It is a new protocol, so there are no guarantees. Life never comes with guarantees…now if I could just find where I filed that warantee! :roll-laugh:

That's the short story!

Michele

[Silvia]

thank you Michelle for the input.  I can see how MP would be beneficial in your situation, with hypersensitivity and two concurrent diseases that need more than one antibiotic. 

I have just RA (if one can say just!), and it's confined to the joints in my right midfoot, which are quite destroyed by now.  my lab work is normal now, my sed rate which was high some years back, CRP and CCP are negative.  My RF is low positive.  I am tolerating the mino 100 mg MWF no problem.  so I think at this early stage, I just need to stay with what I'm doing and see if I experience any symptomatic relief.  after I finished 5 days of IV clinda I felt great for 2 days and thought, if I can feel like this all the time it'll be a miracle!, then the pain returned with a vengeance!  thanks and all the best to you!   Silvia

[Silvia]

Hello Cheryl:

thanks for your very valuable input.  I never cease to be impressed by the wealth of knowledge of the members and particularly the volunteers on the latest research and the different protocols and more importantly the real life anecdotal accounts that can really help the rest of us navigate these relatively uncharted waters!

as i posted in my previous message, I think I'm too early in the AP course to expect to notice any change, or to start making dosing changes or AB changes.  The key lesson I keep learning from all the postings is:  less is more and slow and steady wins the race!  thanks again!   silvia

[Maz]

Hi Sylvia,

Just wanted to add a line of encouragement to you. I've read on a number of occasions that people feel great when undergoing the IVs, but then when they get home from their travels to the doc, they start to herx and all the uncertainties begin to flood back. This can be really tough for patients who have gone to great lengths to see a doc who will do this.IVs…..not to mention the expense, only to get home and wonder if it was all worth it. I believe Dr S in Ida Grove actually requires that his new AP patients read The New Arthritis Breakthrough before they go to him for IV therapy, just so that they are aware of the herxing phenomenon….and he's been so wonderful to all his patients, making himself available by phone on certain days for people to call in with their concerns. They always seem to report back here that he's been able to reassure them. Great guy…wish he worked out of CT! :roll-laugh: 

Worsening in the early months, although not always bad for everyone, is expected and, to varying degress, the norm. The early months can definitely be the hardest to navigate, because we all start AP with such hope…for some it can be a battle to just find a doc willing to give the mino. Then, you get that little bottle of pills in your mitts and feel like you've hit gold – you're finally on your way. Then WHAM! All hell breaks loose and, even though you expected some worsening to occur, it's hard to keep believing it's going to work.

Although this is all really normal – we've read about the herxing phenomenon and are somewhat prepared for it – it can be very hard to actually live through it. Feelings of depression weigh in heavy, just on those days when you feel your worst (of course!), when you question the protocol, worry about joint damage, fear for the future, can't plan in the now and all this can even bring you to the brink of despair (I've been there on a number of occasions)…and after some weeks or months of this, really wonder if you can go on. Then, little moments of wellness start returning. These chinks of light are fleeting, maybe just a few hours or so, so you can barely put your finger on it. Then the moment is gone and you think you're sinking back to square one….but these good moments increase with time and eventually they evolve into whole days of feeling better…and then runs of days of feeling better. It can really be a bit of a roller coaster in the early days.

Your trip is only a month away and you already mentioned you know this is still very early days on AP, but I really hope your foot feels improved by then, Sylvia. If it doesn't, then you may need to get some type of palliative help (might not be a bad idea to prepare for eventualities ahead of time for the trip), just so you can enjoy yourself and get around to make the most of all the lovely memories you'll gather.

The early days of uncertainty are the most challenging, for sure, but as you progress through the winter months, you'll be looking back and taking stock of just how far you've come!  Hang in there and looking forward to hearing all about your trip…if you're passing through GB, give a royal wave for me!

Peace, Maz

[Silvia]

Hi Maz:  I really appreciate your encouragement, and you describe the emotional roller coaster perfectly!  I tend to be quite analytical and go with “evidence based science” in most instances, but despite that, as you say, you get so excited that you've found the cure for your disease and then you wait…and feel miserable, and get discouraged, and wait some more…So, to read your words of encouragement means the world to me.

 From your experiences and those of other members, is there much value in repeating the round of IV clinda within a couple of months?

I agree with your thoughts that I should think about adjunct pain medication while I'm away, I don't want to ruin the holiday by not being able to walk very far due to pain!  and hopefully with a bit of luck I will feel better by then!

thanks again, you are a ray of sunshine!    Silvia

 

[Maz]

[user=548]Silvia[/user] wrote:

From your experiences and those of other members, is there much value in repeating the round of IV clinda within a couple of months?

Hi Sylvia,

My personal experience of IVs is zilch, actually! 😉 Though I would have liked to have started on IVs, I was in no shape for travel of any kind and there were no docs locally who would do it. So I went the orals only route…a little slower, but still worked in the end.

You don't hear of too many people having repeated rounds of IVs…a couple of the sclero folk, but not many RAers. I think the main issue is cost and having to travel. I know your circumstances are different and this shouldn't be a problem for you, so here are Dr F's (experienced AP doc in Riverside, CA) recommendations for repeated rounds of IVs…see FAQ #2:

http://rheumatic.org/faq.htm

Hope this helps some, Sylvia?

Peace, Maz 

[Cheryl F]

Maz & Silvia:

I cannot dispute what is written on the link that Maz provided, but, I know quite a few (at least 20) of Dr. F's RA type patients and none of them have ever done the IVs.  In fact, I know one who pushed it and he didn't think it necessary. 

This is by far not a representative sample, just a few people I have spoken with over the past couple years.  Right now, the only people that I know of that Dr. F has RXd the IVs for are Scleroderma patients.

Now, Dr. S in Iowa does the IVs with most every patient, and that is what Dr. Brown did. 

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents!

Cheryl

[JBJBJB]

Please excuse my ignorance, this is going to be a very stupid question which I have been wondering for very long time.

Does MP mean using less antibiotics, in turn, it has less damage to liver and kidney for long term antibiotic therapy?

:blush:

 

[Michele]

Hi JBJBJB,

MP initials stand for the Marshall Protocol. It is one of a bunch of protocols for these diseases that use antibiotics. Dr. Trevor Marshall, PhD recovered from Sarcoidosis after doing his own research, molecular modelling, and experimentation. He started a clinical study which gradually included more and more people with different types of chronic diseases. Many of who at first had no other alternative. Some examples included now are: sarcoidosis, lyme, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, autism. A whole host of other diseased labeled people are participating in the clinical study from around the world. People who have no clinical dx and know they have disregulated vitamin D are joining the study to prevent chronic disease from being in their personal health future.

Dr. Marshall looked at Dr. Brown's protocol as part of his research to develop his particular protocol. So in that particular aspect, this is a decendant of AP. He uses Benicar to activate the Vitamin D receptor, and phases in a variety of specific combinations of antibiotics to eradicate the multiple variety of CWD. The first phase is Benicar + minocycline.

You may have seen a lot of discussion about the importance of vitamin D in diet and / supplement. This is the protocol that requires the avoidance of vitamin D in diet and limiting sun exposure. Dr. Marshall's premise is that many different types of chronic disease are caused by how the CWD bacteria affect the Vitamin D Receptor which is a huge part of innate immune function. If you look at bacteriality.com, you will see many articles that explain this science quite thoroughly, and mostly in a verbage that lay people can understand.

It's still an evolving clinical study and the science is gaining attention world-wide. From my birds eye limited view, it doesn't appear to work for everyone, but there is some spectacular evidence that it does work for quite a few people. It has helped me a lot in 4 months.

Hope this helps explain it, if not the bacteriality.com does a much more thorough job!

Michele

[JBJBJB]

Thanks, Michele!

JB

[Donna927]

Are the IVs less hard on the stomach?
Only been less than a week on vibramyocin and I just dont like the digestive effects. I was thinking maybe IVs would avoid that problem? The with all my markers normal I dont even know why I am doing the Ap at this time??? Page 269
of Henry Scammels book saiys… last paragraph:
” Once the blood starts to look good, the anemia is corrected, the RF is down, the sedimentation and hemoglobin are where they ought to be, and the mycoplasma antibiodies are beginning to peter out,I know the patient is close to remission.

So I wonder because I have a few swollen joints(2 or maybe 3)
but my other RA indicators normal and.. was negative for lyme and mycoplasma…
seems like I am in remission???

I think Dr. F wants to make sure it is all out of me…
but what if I destroy my intestines… is that why so many people try the gluten free.

Seems like I hear so much of the herx reaction… I think I understand the premise behind the reaction.. but is it the intestines increasing the reaction?
When I was on the bad medicine(methotrexate, etc… I had destroyed my intestines to a degree… and this antibiotic while less strong then those medicines… it does seem to tear holes up and down the GI tube, at least this is how it feels to me.

I bought some kelp and spirulina and will add to try to stimulate thyroid as they did mention I have a lazy thyroid.
Feel like I with antibiotic therapy I am going to increase my RA factors and then decrease them again in hopes of getting rid of anything causing RA.. but in the process I may tear apart my gut….?? so then perhaps causing my arthritis to worsen anyway.. leaky gut
so then how do you ever heal? RA or gut? is this why oral takes a long time to see difference?

so thats why with such a sensitive tummy… I was wondering why might IVs not be a better alternative to the oral antibiotics??
(Yes, I have the great probiotics and supplements too)

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