Weight Gain!!

[Maz]

@Trudi wrote:

I recently came across information indicating that antibiotics can suppress the immune system. As with all things, there is quite a lot of controversy out there; however, with your mentioning the high cortisol and immune-suppressive–I wonder if there could be a connection????? 😕

“Antibiotics are actually designed to help the immune system do its job, and it may even do that in the short term, but in the long term antibiotics actually suppress the immune system.“
http://www.articlesbase.com/medicine-articles/how-antibiotics-weaken-the-immune-system-288646.html

Hi Trudi,

I’m finding it challenging to fathom that there is a direct causal connection to anti-microbial agents and adrenal fatigue, per say, but I also haven’t done any amount of research on this topic. Perhaps you will find some research to support this? It’s just my humble lay opinion that chronic illness and persistent inflammation (caused by microbes in the case of rheumatic disease) is what puts the body into a chronic state of fight-or-flight and that it is this that leads to adrenal fatigue and insufficiency. There may be some instances where an imbalance in gut microbiota from taking abx may cause bowel overgrowth that leads to inflammation, too, but this article also doesn’t mention the use of probiotics and diet to maintain gut health when on abx.

Perhaps in relation to AI diseases, the following statement from the article sets to tone and isn’t really relevant in the context of AP for rheumatic diseases?:

“Firstly, medical antibiotics do not make the immune system stronger, they simply act a replacement for one of its functions: killing harmful bacteria. The immune system functions just like an organ or a muscle.”

If one adheres to there being an infectious cause(s) of AI diseases, then the immune system is already not working properly as “an organ or muscle.” Some dastardly bug or mix of bugs has rung the “fight-or-fight” alarms and that muscle is working overtime to keep up. There are one or more of several options in this scenario…(a) to shut down that immune system ‘muscle’ and stop it functioning, masking symptoms while enabling the offending bugs free reign to do whatever they want in the body, or (b) just throw whatever abx you can at the offending bugs (and any beneficial bugs that may also be targeted) that won’t suppress that ‘muscle’ in the same way as shutting it down but won’t do much to strengthen that immune system ‘muscle’ either, or (c) take a measured approach to building stronger immune function through diet, supps, hormone re-balancing and detoxification, while also targeting offending bugs with abx and carefully replacing beneficial bacteria that may be lost in the process.

The problem with AI diseases is that the immune system isn’t functioning normally anyway. Something has gone awry and the immune system ‘muscle’ is working overtime (in infectious theory, desperately seeking intracellular bugs it can’t locate, but rushing to mop up their chem-trail of toxins). There are lots of theories about how this all happens…genetics, hormones, diet, stress, missing peptide molecules/amino acids, etc, bugs, poor ability to detox, environmental assaults….and it’s probably a complex combination of all these things and more (see “Why Arthritis? by Harold Clark). So, approaching treatment of rheumatic disease with abx therapy is a complex mix of working on every angle possible to re-build that immune ‘muscle,’ by correcting all these imbalances. The challenge is that there is no “one-size-fits-all” in any of this and, for now, abx therapy as a medical treatment is one piece of a much bigger puzzle and one of the safer treatment options without shutting down that “immune muscle” altogether for the rest of one’s life. It’s not a perfect option by any means and it takes a lot of will to self-advocate and figure out things for one’s self, but until there is a treatment option that provides a lasting “cure” that will actually correct the diseased state, abx therapy is at least a safe and pretty effective option for a good percentage of those who try it.

One criticism is that abx only work as anti-inflammatories and immune-modulators for rheumatic disease. This is sort of perplexing in light of those who get well on Brown’s low dose protocols, which are often less than a quarter dose used for acne (e.g. 50 or 100mg mino MWF) and makes no sense. ❓ In higher doses, there is certainly an anti-inflammatory and immune-modulatory effect, but still doesn’t explain why a good many rheumatics get well on very low therapy over a period of time. It is this type of protocol that Brown believed “re-trained” that immune muscle, by slowly lowering the pathogenic cause over time so that a hypervigilant immune-system could re-learn the ropes on its own and behave more normally to sensitizing antigenic substances released by microbes.

I wish, like you, Trudi, that there was an easy answer to all this, but I think the article is more focused on healthy folk and medical professionals who misuse abx when there may be healthier ways to boost immune function to fight acute infections. I was one of these people before getting RA. I refused abx for years and don’t recall taking them for anything for a couple decades…maybe once for a bad bladder infection and in my youth for repeated strep. However, my view changed when presented with a life-altering “AI” disease and faced with either shutting down my immune system altogether or working at what I knew to be a chronic infectious cause in my case. I just wish I had spent more time researching ways to correct my diseased “immune muscle” earlier on, as I think this would have greatly sped up my progress on abx therapy.

How about you? What are your thoughts about the article?

[Trudi]

@Maz wrote:

How about you? What are your thoughts about the article?

Hi Maz–
I think there is validity in the argument; I also recognize that every body’s physiology is different and may not respond a certain way. That is why there seems to always be two sides to every argument when it entails treatment–works for some–doesn’t work for others. Everytime I have taken an anti-inflammatory/immune boosting herb or supplement, I end up herxing. I have come to the conclusion that my immune system is in overdrive and some immune suppressing may be in order.

Question for you. I haven’t done the saliva test–just doesn’t appeal to me. I came across 24-hour urine testing on Dr. C’s website. I have a call in to my doctor to see what she thinks. Did your doctor mention this type of testing at all?

“In short, twenty-four hour urine hormone testing has, in my opinion, three distinct advantages over blood and saliva testing. It more accurately reflects daily total hormone production, it measures free active working hormones, and it tests for 19 or 21 different hormones. All together it gives more of a

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Patricia.Ann]

Thanks a lot Maz for that in depth reply. Just helps me feel a little calmer 🙂

I will keep everything as it is at the moment meds wise and try to ‘stabilise’ everything. Then concentrate on reducing the pred gradually. In the meantime I will take all the advice and supps my naturopath gives me, work on diet and detoxing, making myself be patient (!!!!). This illness truly scares me. Feels a bit like a runaway train completely out of control!

Seems as though you are going through a bit of a blip yourself Maz. Here’s hoping you get things under control again real soon. At least we are all trying hard on this board to get well, supporting each other….

Take great care

Patricia x

[Maz]

@Trudi wrote:

Question for you. I haven’t done the saliva test–just doesn’t appeal to me. I came across 24-hour urine testing on Dr. C’s website. I have a call in to my doctor to see what she thinks. Did your doctor mention this type of testing at all?

Hi Trudi,

Actually, we didn’t really go into much depth about the various ways to test and which is better, but he prefers saliva testing for ovarian hormones and cortisol and had thyroid levels tested through regular blood sample.

My understanding is that the purpose of testing saliva at different points in the day is for cortisol measurement only. A 24 hour urine collection only provides a measurement of the total cortisol being produced in a day, which isn’t really helpful, because the idea is to know what cortisol is doing at different points of the day. For instance, my cortisol is high upon waking, so he wants me to take my adrenal supports upon waking and at midday.

Dr.C. says this in his write-up:

“Hormone levels in blood and saliva can fluctuate significantly during the day. If you draw a blood or saliva specimen, it only tells you what the hormone levels are at that precise moment in time. However, a twenty-four hour urine specimen indicates how much hormone production is actually occurring throughout the day. This broader time frame of hormone production and collection should therefore give a truer picture of endocrine hormone status.”

The 24-hour urine collection is fine, if you’re just looking for total counts. However, if you’re looking for actual variance in levels throughout the day, then saliva collection can tell you what is happening to those levels at different points in the day. E.g. why you may feel horribly sluggish upon waking or crash in late afternoon and at what times of day the adrenals need supp support.

So, I think it depends what you want to run the test for…total hormone counts or, in the case of cortisol, what is happening to those levels at various points in a day.

The ZRT lab discusses the differences between urine/blood and saliva testing in their FAQs:

How accurate is saliva testing compared to blood and urine testing?

Saliva testing has been used in scientific testing for decades and has been shown to be highly accurate. It is the most reliable way to measure free, bioavailable hormone activity

[Trudi]

@Maz wrote:

Let us know what you find out.

Hi Maz–
Thanks for your in-depth answer!!

I called Dr. Crist’s office because I wanted to find out what lab they use. Really didn’t expect to get a reply, but a nurse called me back and gave me the info. She also told me that now Dr. Crist uses blood for the hormone testing–no longer the 24-hour urine test. Would probably be a good idea to update his website. 🙂

After Easter I will do the saliva test 😥 .

Take care–Happy Easter–

Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Trudi]

@Maz wrote:

Let us know what you find out. 🙂

Hi Maz–
I received my cortisol results. I am low in the a.m. and low/normal during the day with a high normal at midnight. Without question I need some support in this area. I also had a total salivary SIga test which shows that I am low.
Take care,
Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Maz]

@Trudi wrote:

I received my cortisol results. I am low in the a.m. and low/normal during the day with a high normal at midnight. Without question I need some support in this area. I also had a total salivary SIga test which shows that I am low.

Trudi, so kind of you to send the update and great job getting the saliva testing run! Did the lab also get a female hormone panel or did you just get cortisol tested?

My other hormones were low, but within range, so my doc and I decided to try to fix the high cortisol levels first, because high cortisol can sometimes mess up thyroid levels (due to suppression), for instance, and give false readings. I didn’t have the SIgA test run, but can see the value in this. I guess you used a different lab?

Will your doc also be able to help with adrenal supports?

Hope this finding helps, Trudi. Seems that poor adrenal function is pretty common-place amongst rheumatics.

[Trudi]

@Maz wrote:

Trudi, so kind of you to send the update and great job getting the saliva testing run! Did the lab also get a female hormone panel or did you just get cortisol tested?

I did not do the spitting into vials–tried it and just could not do it 🙁 . So I did the one with the cotton; unfortunately, they cannot do the female hormones that way.

I didn’t have the SIgA test run, but can see the value in this. I guess you used a different lab?

Diagnos-Techs, Inc.

Will your doc also be able to help with adrenal supports?

That’s the plan. Because I have been in such pain, I actually started on 5 mg compounded hydrocortisone right after doing the saliva test. Years ago, hydrocortisone (Cortef) worked really well. The compounded hasn’t been of much help. They use yellow dye and some grey for the capsules 😯 ; my chiropractor thinks this may be causing me some grief. I just ordered regular Cortef and will see if I get some relief. I did a LOT of researching on this, including reading the book by Dr. Jefferies, The Safe Use of Cortisol. Both my ND and my chiropractor are on board–4 years are long enough without some additional support!

Hope this finding helps, Trudi.

Me, too! 🙂

Take care,
Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Maz]

@Trudi wrote:

@Maz wrote:

Diagnos-Techs, Inc.

4 years are long enough without some additional support!

No doubt you have researched this to bits…I just pulled up this page which was interesting to read:

http://www.doctorschoice.net/Files%20102108/WEBSITE%20DIAGNOS%20TECHS/Diagnos-Techs_Andrenal%20Stress%20Index%20Panels.pdf

So true…4 years is a long time and if your adrenals are short on cortisol, then supplementing should help. Careful not to over-do it…my problem is excess cortisol (mind you, I also ran the test a couple weeks after I lost my Dad in Jan), but I think the excess cortisol has led to weight gain and belly fat. Ugh. 🙄

Hope you get some well-deserved relief soon, Trudi. 🙂 Let us know how it goes for you. I’ve noticed a big difference in how I feel on adrenal supps to help lower my cortisol….not so sluggish in the AM with more energy than usual. However, I am also herxing quite a bit with the IV clindy. As cortisol levels come down, so does the ‘natural’ immune suppression it affords.

[cavalier]

I have put on weight these last few months despite efforts – I did the saliva test & my cortisol not surprisingly was very high – mine was thru ZRT labs by the way. I am on drenamin by Standard Process & Adrenotone by Designs for health. I wish i could say I am a morning person – like you Maz I am a nite person. I dont know which came 1st in the chicken or the egg but def. a component as to why I have not responded as much and I continue to get more symptoms showing in this freight train of SD – all of this is just to offer support in that it can be more than one issue contributing – not just the pred.
Bacterias like also body fat – it helps to hide & keep them sustained I hate it for many reasons. Stress adds to this picture & nothing but that has been coming just sometimes you do the best you can with things out of your control.

Jill SD

[Maz]

Jill, I second all that! 🙂

[Trudi]

@Maz wrote:

(mind you, I also ran the test a couple weeks after I lost my Dad in Jan)

Hi Maz–
I did not know that you lost your father in January. My deepest sympathies to you and your family.

My mother passed away on 12/27. LOTS of stress, as you well know.

As cortisol levels come down, so does the ‘natural’ immune suppression it affords.

That is a fine line to achieve–the cortisol levels. Too much, no good–too little no good. During my research into using hydrocortisone, I came across this article which was very thought provoking:
http://www.wellsphere.com/lyme-disease-article/why-treating-the-adrenals-matters-in-lyme-disease/53223

My chiro is going to address what the Diagnos-Techs, Inc. call the 4 broad categories of cortisol release inducers: Glycemic disregulation, Sympathetic overflow, Tissue damage (inflammation, pain) and Mental and Emotional stressors. They say “Long-term adrenal axis maintenance and restoration, require optimization of all the cortisol inducers.” My chiro muscle tests me to see what my body needs. Right now she is addressing glycemic disregulation and heavy metals. My ND, according to my recent blood work put me on (through the chiro) Chlorophyll Complex by Standard Process (to help with anemia and some signs of RA)–here is some info on it: http://www.standardprocess.com/display/displayFile.aspx?docid=74&filename=/Public/Lit/TabSheets/chlorophyllcomplex2275.pdf Just started taking it yesterday. Slept like a baby last night 🙂 ; be great if they had something to do with that!

I just now took a look at your posted article; this of course, is through the lab that tested my saliva, so some of the info I posted may be repetitive for you.

Take care,
Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[cavalier]

I think once my adrenals come down I should retest my thyroid – as it too borders low end of normal – my labs thru ZRT showed my Cortisol at 26.6 high end of normal is 9.5 – range is 3.7 to 9.5 I darn close in being 3 times over the high end. I thought you might find that interesing Maz.

I do want to 2nd Standard Process their products – Used their products for my dogs for many many yr’s & still do. Have used their products myself since the 70’s off & on. They have been around a long time & up in Wisconsin – I feel they offer a high quality product for a very good price considering the level you are getting. I would be lost without SP as I call it.
I can always count on them to deliver a product based on good organic foods long b/4 it bacme popular with nutrient content.

Am sorry for your loss Maz i lost a good friend in Jan. but the loss of a parent well it takes time & you never stop missing them, mine have been gone a long time – 85 & 93 but I believe they are some of the angels working overtime to try to guide us & help us beyond.

Jill SD

[Lynne G.SD]

Hi Gang;
Sorry not to get here very often.Almost normal life has me running in 10 directions at once.There was a very good article in Saturday’s paper and thought I would pass it on.It’s mostly about animals but since we fall into that category it should apply to us,no?Dr. Schwartz is a professor of chemistry at McGill in Montreal and one of the smartest fellows I know.He did a 3 article expose on homeopathy last month and I just roared with laughter.If I have time I will gheck for them….some day….

http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/feelings+about+antibiotics+good+ugly/6607046/story.html

[Patricia.Ann]

Hi Lynne 🙂

Thank you for this link. Very, very interesting and probably, alongside the steroids, exactly what I am experiencing. No hope of me losing weight just yet then 🙁 Oh dear!

I must admit I did put quite a bit of weight on with the steroids but since starting the minocycline and upping the dose I have definitely put a lot more on in the tummy area. Not a good look 😳 This explains it all really well – a ‘lightbulb’ moment.

I wish I could say that the mino was working but alas I think it is not. I will wait and see what my next bloods say but up to now still have many of the same symptoms and it seems to be the prednisolone and celebrex that is keeping things pretty much the same as it always has since a couple of years ago. Still an awful lot of pain when the morphine wears off and lots of swelling. Had a bit of tummy trouble over the last week or two so am having a break from the mino at the mo to see if it is that. I do take good probiotics and my naturopath gave me parsley piert for candida type symptoms if I have trouble.

Thank you once again for thinking of us

Patricia x

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