Questions about vitamin B12 deficiency

[klogan]

My rheumy has diagnosed a very slight B12 deficiency (400 pg/mL is low, mine is 437 pg/mL). But he thinks B12 shots could possibly help with ringing in the ears, dizziness, etc.
I have heard that one cause of B12 deficiency is bacteria overgrowth in the digistive system. But I am having trouble finding out much about this problem, because yeast overgrowth seems to be the big thing with AP. I assume that bacterial overgrowth is different.

Here are a bunch of questions:

• Could I be taking too much probiotic? (I take between 2 and 6 a day of those one a day pearls)[/*:2hf3gm5f]
• Does anyone know anything about bacteria overgrowth and autommune diseases? I hear they can go together, but all I ever hear about is yeast yeast yeast…[/*:2hf3gm5f]
• Could this point to a leaky gut kind of situation?
  [/*:2hf3gm5f]
• Does anyone take vitamin B12 shots? I had one[/*:2hf3gm5f]

I searched the board here and google, and so far am more confused. Hope one of you brilliant people can point me in the right direction.

[richie]

Hi

If you are taking antibiotic –you certainly arent taking too much probiotic –I would question why a rheumy is giving you B12 –Personally I think some rheumies take on too much –I would think discussing this with an internist is more appropriate –besides you have low normal levels of B12 not low .!!!!!!!!!!1

Richie

[A Friend]

[user=87]klogan[/user] wrote:

My rheumy has diagnosed a very slight B12 deficiency (400 pg/mL is low, mine is 437 pg/mL). But he thinks B12 shots could possibly help with ringing in the ears, dizziness, etc.
I have heard that one cause of B12 deficiency is bacteria overgrowth in the digistive system. But I am having trouble finding out much about this problem, because yeast overgrowth seems to be the big thing with AP. I assume that bacterial overgrowth is different.

Here are a bunch of questions:

• Could I be taking too much probiotic? (I take between 2 and 6 a day of those one a day pearls) [/*:2qnxtjp7]
• Does anyone know anything about bacteria overgrowth and autommune diseases? I hear they can go together, but all I ever hear about is yeast yeast yeast… [/*:2qnxtjp7]
• Could this point to a leaky gut kind of situation?
  [/*:2qnxtjp7]
• Does anyone take vitamin B12 shots? I had one[/*:2qnxtjp7]

I searched the board here and google, and so far am more confused. Hope one of you brilliant people can point me in the right direction.

Klogan,

Am definitely not brilliant, but have read the work of a lot who are!

If you will type in one of these word choices into the little white search window above, many posts  will show up on these related subjects: 

yeast, fungal, candida (try any others you think of)

Also, Administration recently posted a link to the archived messages from the old RBF Bulletin Board where there are many posts on this subject — and they've given instructions on how to do this.   

Also, if you purchase or check out a copy of any of Dr. Wm Crook's books from the library, this will give you a good education on this subject of yeast overgrowth and how to prevent it and/or recover from it.  Dr. Crook, from the time he was a young practicing pediatrition, included the study of candida/yeast overgrowth part of his life's work…. and we are all benefactors of his work. 

Especially interesting to me 'way back when' was that yeast overgrowth becomes systemic when the yeast population in our gut runs out of biotin (a B vitamin) in the gastro system and they begin burrowing deep into the tissues to find another source of this.  I hope I've not skewed the information here too badly. 

Another of my views learned from this area of reading is that our good flora/organisms make the necessary B vitamins for our body.  When they are crowded out and we don't have enough good bacteria to manufacture the B vitamins, more bad things begin to happen to us… including the unfriendly organisms burrowing into our tissues looking for biotin and then becoming a fungal infection, and much more serious.  (About your B-12 deficiency, many people are told to take a complete B-vitamin formula twice daily, and then if they need specific other single B vitamins, these can be added. )

There are sublingual forms of B vitamins available in health stores and these can be absorbed directly into the bloodstream.  I believe every one of us with our diagnoses need to look into taking  at least a B-50 sublingual B-complex formula twice a day, and then perhaps more of B-12 (as well as other needed B's) added in addition.  For those experiencing severe apathy and depression, experimenting adding “Niacinamide” (it's also a B vitamin) CAN have pretty noticeable positive effects quickly (I used Solaray brand 500 mg — and only the ingredient listed as  “Niacinamide.”  Niacin for this IS NOT the same thing.)  Benefits of niacinamide in serious diagnoses can be read about in Thorne scientific research, posted previously.  A search above for “Niacinamide” may turn up this research.  Many people's bodies cannot convert substances when they are chronically ill. 

Best to you,
AF

[klogan]

A Friend, thanks for all the ideas…
So, you think bacteria overgrowth and yeast overgrowth are related?

I do kind of love the B12 shot. Wowza! My energy shot up with a pleasurable jolt – I'd been trying to fight my way out of the low energy and gloominess for a while. But I don't want to take stuff I don't need.

What I am afraid of is that between the RA and the NSAIDs, I might be developing leaky gut syndrome. My diet is sometimes splendid (vegtables! vegetables! vegetables!) and sometimes execrable (chocolate! chocolate! chocolate!). Need to work on that!
I am trying to cut back on the NSAID (Celebrex) also.

[Pip]

Hi there!

Would you mind posting any links to the info you have on the bacterial overgrown in relation to B12, please?  I have a friend dealing with this and found links to the hormones in the gut, intrinsic factor, and and some info that shows that B12 deficiency can be 'auto-immune'.  Well, when I saw that, I went, 'darn buggers love hormones' and 'auto-immune' made me think of their ability to hijack a cell for it's properties….I know this sounds like babbling so…any links?

Hugs,

Pip

P.S.  You are low-normal – I know you like the B12, and I don't know how that could be bad for us…but you definately don't really need it…you may want it…but need it is another matter. 🙂

[klogan]

Pip, here are a few links:

I started with Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_bowel_bacterial_overgrowth_syndrome

This Web site gives you an idea of the interrelation of B12 and autoimmune disorders.
For example: “Deficiency of vitamin B12 can occur in bacterial overgrowth”
and “Disorders of the immune system can cause bacterial overgrowth. Chronic pancreatitis, or inflammation of the pancreas can cause bacterial overgrowth through mechanisms linked to this.[10][/sup] The use of immunosuppressant medications to treat other conditions can cause this, as evidenced from animal models.[11][/sup] Other causes include inherited immunodeficiency conditions, such as combined variable immunodeficiency, IgA deficiency, and hypogammaglobulinemia.[12]”

[/sup]Other Web sites:
http://altmedicine.about.com/od/healthconditionsdisease/a/overgrowth.htm
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030301/979.html

Well, I'm off to grow some bacteria now – I must say it makes a nice change from yeast. But I must say, it's sad that I can't have a B12 shot every three days!;)
They are so lovely.

[A Friend]

[user=87]klogan[/user] wrote:

So, you think bacteria overgrowth and yeast overgrowth are related?

I do kind of love the B12 shot. Wowza! My energy shot up with a pleasurable jolt – I'd been trying to fight my way out of the low energy and gloominess for a while. But I don't want to take stuff I don't need.

What I am afraid of is that between the RA and the NSAIDs, I might be developing leaky gut syndrome. My diet is sometimes splendid (vegtables! vegetables! vegetables!) and sometimes execrable (chocolate! chocolate! chocolate!). Need to work on that!
I am trying to cut back on the NSAID (Celebrex) also.

Klogan,

If I said “bacteria overgrowth and yeast are related”, I meant to say “unfriendly organisms overgrowth and yeast are related,” as I understand it , yeast/fungal overgrowth can result when we have longterm illness and the good organisms are destroyed by abx and bad organisms outnumber and take over, and especially when we've been on antibiotics without replenishing the good organisms with probiotics to repopulate the good flora.  Also, this can happen, especially when we're in this situation and consume white sugars (and even most sugars when this happens), white flour, white rice, and other processed foods that feed these bad organisms.  In my own case, I've learned how very acidic we become when these things happen: the acidity from the bad organisms themselves, the die-off, medications, and when eat that type of diet they love — and bad organisms thrive in an acidic environment.   Your “vegetables, vegetables, vegetables” sounds like “part” of a good plan.

The B12 shots are probably very helpful, and I would probably have greatly benefited from these also, as just a few years ago my B-12 on labs showed pretty low.  I also was in a wasting syndrome at one time, and it took the better part of a year to address it, plateau, and then get back to a really healthy, normal weight condition.  Ironically, I was able to reverse this even after going on AP for the first time right after this; so, I know it can be done. 

About the gloominess you spoke of, you might investigate taking the one capsule daily of Solaray 500 mg. Niacinamide capsule with your multi-vitamin or with a B-complex daily.  If this is needed and will be helpful, you most probably will know this within the first 7-10 days.  And it's so very inexpensive.  There are several rather serious conditions for which this simple B vitamin can make a great deal of difference when incorporated into the daily regimen, even for juveniles with a predisposition to it  to avoid diabetes (search and see Thorne Research Niacinamide article in archived messages). 

More later,

AF

[edit/add] PS Forgot that there is a topic on the subject of Niacinamide under General Discussion.  You might like to check it out.  Hope this link works:

http://www.rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=482&forum_id=1&highlight=Niacinamide

[DragonSlayer]

Hi, klogan:

• Could I be taking too much probiotic? (I take between 2 and 6 a day of those one a day pearls)[/*:2yhabx40]
• Does anyone know anything about bacteria overgrowth and autommune diseases? I hear they can go together, but all I ever hear about is yeast yeast yeast…[/*:2yhabx40]
• Could this point to a leaky gut kind of situation?
  [/*:2yhabx40]
• Does anyone take vitamin B12 shots? I had one[/*:2yhabx40]

Probably not taking too much probiotic, but it is a case where more is not more effective, and the probiotics cannot displace bacteria and fungi (and etc) that are not entrenched at the location where the acidophilus (&c) naturally implant.

Yes, many AI diseases are due to bacteria overgrowth and nearly all are complicated by LGS often due to yeast.

Not always

No, but probably good to do in many cases.

The issues with RA may have more to do with displaced bacterial colonies that are not totally related to LGS:  I don't have actual support for the following, but it is something to consider–Professor Ebringer (Kings College, London) found that AS is due to the bacterium Klebsiella pneumoniae and the focal infection is in the bowel, where LGS allows greater access to our immune system.  He had to work out a way to differentiate AS from RA in their early stages, and found that RA was probably due to the germ Proteus mirabilis but the focal infection is the urinary tract.  In taking histories, he found that many cases of RA were preceded by UTI that was never properly identified and only treated to eliminate salient symptoms, but the germ remained in reduced numbers but enough to cause RA through “molecular mimicry,” which explains most of the characteristic damage.

His work in AS has proven quite beneficial for those able to follow almost total elimination of starch (the main food for Klebsiella)–the patients can convince themselves better than the medical community that still scoffs at Ebringer's work.

That does not mean he is correct about RA, but if I had this diagnosis I would certainly follow his advice, dietary and otherwise.

In fact nothing is ever simple, and there are at least 12 of the over 200 'enterobacteriaceae' (intestinal flora) that can cause arthritic symptoms, especially if the integrity of the epithelium is compromised (increased permeability) through NSAIDs, disease, or even physical damage.  Antibiotics do strip away some of the mucosa, which can lead to increased permeability on a temporary basis, and steroids (including birth control pills) often lead to dysbiosis which usually means yeast overgrowth, in addition to germ displacements.

B12 can be low for many reasons, but sometimes a celiac-like condition exists where we are not able to absorb minerals and vitamins properly.  Although some small quantity of B12 is manufactured in our tracts (healthy tracts), this can of course be affected by taking antibiotics and especially steroids.  Food sensitivities should also be considered.  I have a couple of related thoughts:

“Celiac” is more common than recognized and instead of a full-on disease process, many peiople are “sensitive” enough that gluten causes troubles that are not easily recognized.

And certainly that, when there is ONE bacterium that has outstepped its “normal” boundaries, there are really MANY which join them–not just bacteria but all kinds of life forms especially viruses (there are 3000 of these in our tracts, but yeasts, protista, and all the way up to and including varieties of worms–a real orgy!

Good luck to You,
John

[Author]

Posts