Probiotic Supplementation Improves Rheumatoid Arthritis

[ablegirl]

Hi Ritchie

Not sure what a Pharmaceutical driven economy would do either with most politicians in its pocket. I wouldn’t have thought you would get any nearer the truth.

[prioris]

any recommendations

[Krys]

@prioris wrote:

any recommendations

Hi Prioris,

PB8, Swanson’s, Mercola’s, VSL#3. Dr. Ohirra’s, Metagenix Ultra Flora, + a lot more depending on what is happening in the body. Fermented vegetables, raw kefir made with kefir grains. Yogurt contains the least amount and sweetened (as in fruity) is possibly worthless.

The main page of General Discussion has a “Search this forum” window above the list of threads. There were lots of discussions in the past about probiotics, though finding them gets a bit daunting as all the posts that mention the word “probiotics” show up. I think most people use multiple brands and have their own favorites, and those may change in time.

Hopefully you’ll find some useful info here:
– “VSL3 for immune system modulation” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9327&p
– “Probiotics Needed????” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5384&hilit
– “How Much Probiotics?” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6549&p
– “Probiotics while on Minocycline” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9563&p
– viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5337&hilit=Maz+probiotics&start=10
+ more threads out there

Some more on probiotics:
— http://www.gapsdiet.com/uploads/Probiotics.pdf The article is mainly about autism, but still applies to all of us
— http://betterhealthguy.com/bill “oral probotics (pills and drinks) – diversify with as many brands and strains as possible”
— http://search.mercola.com/results.aspx?q=probiotics

Warm wishes, Krys

[Grace]

JohnnyMax,

So confused. Doesn’t our gut have a lot of different bacteria? What is the benefit of taking just one? And how do we know which one to pick? And what strength? Sure wish there were doctors that had this knowledge. It sure is a lot of work finding ways to better health!

[prioris]

There isn’t any right path for all so this is a very confusing area to deal with … as someone said, it’s trial and error approach at best

You have Prebiotic, Probiotics and Enzymes. You also have infections, inflammation or something else gone wrong.

If we could see our lining of the intestinal and health of what has been called the villi by some, just like a skin problem, we could identify the more specific problem easier. villi get regrown every few days. there doesn’t seem a way to just cure it and forget about it. epithelial cells grow fast and die fast. i need to learn a lot more myself about this area.

[Krys]

@prioris wrote:

villi get regrown every few days.
…i need to learn a lot more myself about this area.

I’m not an expert, but maybe you got carried away here?
When there are damaged villi, there’s inflammation of the mucosa, dysbiosis, leaky gut, inflammation outside of the gut, auto-immunity, maldigestion, malabsorption, a whole vicious cycle. Villi will not regrow in those circumstances. It takes much, much longer than a few days to reverse the conditions that led to villi atrophy. Gapsdiet.com has got a very thought out protocol for healing the gut and if remember right it takes at least 2 years and lots of hard work to help it happen.
I so wish your words were true. I need to learn a lot more about this myself. We all do.
Warm wishes,
Krys

[Trudi]

@Krys wrote:

@prioris wrote:

villi get regrown every few days.
…i need to learn a lot more myself about this area.

I’m not an expert, but maybe you got carried away here?

Hi Krys–
Prioris is right. I read about this some time ago. Given the correct nutrition parts of the body renews itself, the intestines within days:

“OUR intestines are lined with cells known as villi – these are tiny, finger-like branches that increase the surface area and help the intestine to absorb nutrients.

They have a very high turnover rate and can be replaced every two to three days, explains Tom MacDonald, professor of immunology at Barts and the London Medical School.

This is because they are constantly exposed to chemicals such as highly corrosive stomach acid that breaks down food, so they’re constantly under attack.

The rest of the intestine protects itself with a layer of mucus, although this barrier cannot withstand the stomach acid for long – so the cells here renew themselves every three to five days.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1219995/Believe-lungs-weeks-old–taste-buds-just-days-So-old-rest-body.html

Take care,
Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Krys]

Trudi,
I think Dr. MacDonald is speaking about villi’s inherent ability to renew themselves?
And we are probably talking about different things? I was not arguing that they do not have the capacity, I was pointing to the fact that when they are already damaged (as they are, to various degrees, in gut issues), it takes a long time to reverse the conditions that caused the damage. And as long as those conditions are present (inflammation, dysbiosis, leaky gut….) the villi cannot regrow. Damaged villi = leaky gut. Anybody healed it within a few days?

Healthy gut, rich in probiotics, will sustain regrowth. Single damaged villi in otherwise healthy gut will manifest their inherent capacity to regrow. A bout of diarrhea in a normally health gut will not cause any lasting damage. After a few days it’s as if it never took place. But when the whole gut is one toxic soup of bacteria, inflammatory compounds, etc., and the villi are damaged as a consequence of this terrain, it takes a long time for them to regrow. One needs to change the terrain. The bacteria, fungi, parasites, inflammation, needs to be lowered before re-population by probiotics can take effect and the conditions be present for the full regrowth.

One can find lots of contradictory information on the internet. Dr. MacDonald made another statement in his article that is just not true according to newer research and people’s experience. But I can’t afford to engage in discussions. Defending views, trying to prove what one knows as facts,….takes away from the energy needed for healing and serves no purpose if it does not help anyone. I would love if the villi would regrow within days. It would make my day.

So just a couple of articles and I will shut up.
With villi atrophy due to gluten (note that no dysbiosis is mentioned here, so no mycoplasma, no candida, no… to take care of first):
“Your villi will begin to heal themselves as soon as you start a strict gluten-free diet; however the healing process can take time. According to the National Institute of Health, children tend to heal more quickly than adults, so a child on a strict gluten-free diet should see normal antibody levels within three to six months ….It may take an adult up to two years..”
http://gluten.lovetoknow.com/How_Fast_Does_Gluten_Destroy_the_Villi

http://www.easy-immune-health.com/villous-atrophy.html

For anyone further interested in gut health, villi, chronic disease, please Google and you’ll find a lot of info.
“dysbiosis + villi”, “inflammation + villi”, “mycoplasma infection + villi”, “chronic disease + leaky gut”, etc.

No energy to try to convince anybody of anything. I shouldn’t have responded. I’ve been healing my villi last 5 years and not even half done. I SO wish you were right and it was as simple as a few days and not connected to other conditions within the gut and the whole body.
So, let’s agree to disagree.
Krys

[Trudi]

@Krys wrote:

we are probably talking about different things?

Yes! I do agree that a healthy body’s intestines will renew itself within days. However, I have found that getting back to a healthy body is completely individual and what works for one does not necessarily work for another–different genes, different environment, different everything–we are unique in every way and when the injury is complex it makes the healing so much more difficult.

This is why I continue to search and learn what works best for me. Hope this makes sense.

Take care,
Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[prioris]

I also agree we are talking about different things. There is normal regeneration but there are
many things that make regeneration longer. I think as more research is done, more efficient
methods will be found to regenerate things. Thank you Krys for the information.

[RLKINNETT]

I’ve just started minocycline (200 Mg/day). When should I incorporate probiotics?

[Maz]

@RLKINNETT wrote:

I’ve just started minocycline (200 Mg/day). When should I incorporate probiotics?

Right away! The norm is to take them at least 2-3 hours well away from antibiotic doses to ensure that the gut is replenished by good bacteria and these aren’t destroyed by the abx. Different probiotics suit different folks and dosing tends to be per bowel tolerance, but ensuring enough probotic is essential to prevent candida overgrowth in the gut. My doc hands out literature that says that probiotics are not an option and are essential while on abx therapy. Hope that helps, RLKINNETT.

[A Friend]

@Krys wrote:

@prioris wrote:

any recommendations

Hi Prioris,

PB8, Swanson’s, Mercola’s, VSL#3. Dr. Ohirra’s, Metagenix Ultra Flora, + a lot more depending on what is happening in the body. Fermented vegetables, raw kefir made with kefir grains. Yogurt contains the least amount and sweetened (as in fruity) is possibly worthless.

The main page of General Discussion has a “Search this forum” window above the list of threads. There were lots of discussions in the past about probiotics, though finding them gets a bit daunting as all the posts that mention the word “probiotics” show up. I think most people use multiple brands and have their own favorites, and those may change in time.

Hopefully you’ll find some useful info here:
– “VSL3 for immune system modulation” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9327&p
– “Probiotics Needed????” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5384&hilit
– “How Much Probiotics?” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6549&p
– “Probiotics while on Minocycline” viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9563&p
– viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5337&hilit=Maz+probiotics&start=10
+ more threads out there

Some more on probiotics:
— http://www.gapsdiet.com/uploads/Probiotics.pdf The article is mainly about autism, but still applies to all of us
— http://betterhealthguy.com/bill “oral probotics (pills and drinks) – diversify with as many brands and strains as possible”
— http://search.mercola.com/results.aspx?q=probiotics

Warm wishes, Krys

Krys,
I’ve always felt/known you were full of wisdom and knowledge. I was even curious many times about Buhner’s work and your respect for it. I clicked on one of the above links about an hour ago, and talk about “AHAA” moments! I’ve been making notes and “pasting” things into a Word document ever since. I have a close acquaintance in dire need of things I’ve just read on the site (and hope to learn more about and share). Also, since part of my own illness was exacerbated by, but not the original cause of it, was mold exposure in a rented apt while building a home a number of years ago, one of the links also gave me a lot to study. Some of us were already like “canaries in the coal mines” of yesteryear; and we are more susceptible to exposures and overcoming damage.

I hope those posting who are new to AP and the Road Back, chronic illness, etc. will learn (sooner rather than later), that the diagnoses we have need a lot of knowledge and definitely a lot of dedication… and if we have the right information + we use self discipline, we can get better sooner rather than later. There is so much more information available I had/have not learned. And here you’ve been, Krys, mentioning Buhner for several years… and I JUST this morning went to a site about his work!!! Shame on me… for not investigating this information before today. Thanks Krys for being such an asset to our Bulletin Board and a friend to all of us!!!
Hugs,
AF

[m.]

@Grace wrote:

JohnnyMax,

So confused. Doesn’t our gut have a lot of different bacteria? What is the benefit of taking just one? And how do we know which one to pick? And what strength? Sure wish there were doctors that had this knowledge. It sure is a lot of work finding ways to better health!

Hi Grace, identifying the gut microbiome, and linking profiles to disease is definitely an upcoming hot field right now. I think we can expect some major breakthroughs in the next 5-10 years.

Yes, it looks like a healthy gut has a lot of diversity. Currently, only a few types of bacteria are available OTC and those are generally the types one would find in a variety of fermented foods.

Citizen Science projects like American Gut and uBiome are collecting stool samples and health questionnaires from participants in hopes of speeding up the research and dot-connecting.

Good introductory reading at Jeff Leach’s blog, Heisenbug’s blog, and Tim Steele’s. The theme is we need exposure to wide range of bacteria in our daily lives (we spend a HUGE amount of time inside buildings or inside cars), and we need to feed the bacteria in our guts with fermentable fiber.

blog.http://humanfoodproject.com/author/jeff-leach/

https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com

http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com

[Author]

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