Low iron/ Anemia!

[Chris]

Just checking on how many people have trouble with low iron counts and anemia on AP protocol? I am having trouble with low iron counts and am starting iron supplements. Yah! Any advice would be helpful!

Chris

[Lizz]

HI Chris – I too have anemia since last December. I have been on iron pills since May with no resolution ( I think it's because I can't absorb it.) I had a colonscopy and upper GI to rule out bleeding. I don't think the RA or the antibiotic is causing it. I think the high doses of msm I took for several months before it caused it. I wish you better luck than I have had trying to turn this around!

[roserdRA]

As far as I know it's not only Iron deficency that causes Anemia and as much as iron is needed for Red Blood cells so is B12 and folate.

RA is an inflammatory disease and Anemia of chronic disease can be quite different to my knowledge. IL-6 an inflammatory cytokin can upregulate Hepcidin which in turn regulates Ferroportin which is a transmembrane protein that transports iron out of cells and is dependant on the proper transport gradient of the cell. Which in turn is dependent on Calcium, Magnesium,Potassium etc.

Potassium defficiency is very common among people with RA. It is possible to fix a secondary problem by trying to fix the initial ones.

What I am trying to say is, that iron uptake is tightly regulated by our bodies and absorbtion of iron is blocked if it is adequate. So the problem may lie totally elsewhere.

In my opinion:

One has to treat the whole illness and not just bits and pieces of it because our body functions as a whole and all systems work hand in hand. Sometimes I wish our Doctors would take the time to try to see the whole issue. I have yet to meet one like it. 😀

[Parisa]

My husband had very low RB counts which I believe was caused by his babesiosis.  Treatment of the babesiosis has brought the numbers back to normal range.

[A Friend]

[user=1567]Chris[/user] wrote:

Just checking on how many people have trouble with low iron counts and anemia on AP protocol? I am having trouble with low iron counts and am starting iron supplements. Yah! Any advice would be helpful!

Chris

Chris, Lizz, All,

I just accidentally found a printed copy of the post I referred to when I posted this to the anemia thread, and was able to go on a private support group site and retrieve it.  Will add this to the thread, just in case the information in it has not been added to this thread by someone else: 

The post begins (personal names have been deleted):
 

Below is an excerpt from an article re. Chronic Disease Anemia. Some might find it interesting. I included the source site at the end. [This was found a few years ago. af]
 
Anemia of Chronic Disease. (anemia of defective iron utilization). In patients with inflammatory states iron is sequestered in the RE system and is unavailable for use by the developing red cell (defective iron utilization). Thus at the erythrocyte level the defect is identical to iron deficiency and therefore results in production of underhemoglobinized red cells. This can result in a microcytic/hypochromic anemia. Additional factors including shorten red cell survival and decrease responsiveness to erythropoietin add to the hypoproliferative state. The inflammatory state also leads to a decreased serum iron and decreased TIBC. Recently the spectrum of diseases associated with anemia of chronic disease has expanded. Besides the classic association of temporal arteritis (may be a presenting sign), rheumatoid arthritis, cancer etc., anemia of chronic disease has been found in patients with non-inflammatory medical conditions such as congestive heart failure, COPD and diabetes. Patients with anemia of chronic disease can have hemoglobins decreased into the lower 20% range and many (20-30%)will have red cell indices in the microcytic range. Diagnosis is made by demonstrating ample bone marrow iron stores with decrease sideroblasts (iron containing red cell precursors). Biochemically anemia of chronic disease is a diagnosis of exclusion. The key test is to rule out iron deficiency. The RDW is of ABSOLUTELY no value in differentiating anemia due to iron deficiency from those associated with chronic disease. The serum iron is decreased in both conditions and the TIBC is low in states where iron deficiency and chronic disease co-exists thus rendering these tests useless. The finding of an elevated ferritin over 100ng/ml is an adequate demonstration of good iron stores. In the older patient or one with back pain, one should also rule-out the presence of multiple myeloma by perform a serum protein electrophoresis. In difficult cases one can resort to assessing bone marrow stores of iron………….   http://www.labfocus.com/sympos/fact.bayer.html
[This link was copied several years ago and I could not readily find the above information online today. af]

___________________________

[Below is my previous post a while back. af]
Chris & Lizz, about low iron counts and anemia, I've read many times that this condition can be caused my overgrowth of organisms and their consuming/destroying (whichever it is) iron; and that if we take iron supplements, this can actually be detrimental unless we have expert guidance on this.  I believe there is a good article on this on rheumatic.org under Frequently Asked Questions.  Will post this for the moment, and return and add any link(s) I find on this subject. 

Best to you, AF

Edit:  I did not find the information I remember reading several years ago on this.  However, I am pasting an article by one of the most respected physicians in this area of knowledge, Dr. Leo Galland. 

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/column.asp?PageType=Column&Id=68

[align=center]Dangers of Iron Supplements[/align]

[align=center]

[lynnie_sydney]

Chris – it sounds as if there is some concern that AP may be causing the low iron count/anemia. In fact this is a frequent additional physical problem that manifests in rheumatoid diseases. It's documented in 'The New Arthritis Breakthrough' – pages 144 and 159. Often it does not resolve with B12, iron or folic acid supplementation. In Pat Ganger and Carol Lange's book  'Solving the Puzzling Problem of Arthritis' it states

'The damaged bone marrow is why arthritics are anemic and do not respond to iron, ,liver or B12 and other things to build up their blood………………But if you treat the infectious component that is the trouble behind all this with antibiotics, the bone marrow will recover and the hemaglobin will rise'

(page 144). Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[A Friend]

[user=30]lynnie_sydney[/user] wrote:

… It's documented in 'The New Arthritis Breakthrough' – pages 144 and 159. Often it does not resolve with B12, iron or folic acid supplementation. In Pat Ganger and Carol Lange's book  'Solving the Puzzling Problem of Arthritis' it states

'The damaged bone marrow is why arthritics are anemic and do not respond to iron, ,liver or B12 and other things to build up their blood………………But if you treat the infectious component that is the trouble behind all this with antibiotics, the bone marrow will recover and the hemaglobin will rise'

(page 144). Lynnie

Lynnie,

This was the exact information I was looking for.  You have again come to my rescue! 

I believe at one time it was in “Frequently Asked Questions” on Rheumatic.org.  I was shocked when I didn't find it there last night.  I have used this in previous replies. 

Thanks again for documenting this original source and the page of the reference.  Am going to copy/paste it right now. 

AF

[lynnie_sydney]

My pleasure AF:) Lynnie

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[m.]

My routine bloodwork includes a CBC and Serum Iron and Ferritin.

You might have low serum iron, but your body is tucking it away as ferritin in order to combat an infection.

Just doing serum iron isn't enough information.

Eugene Weinberg of Indiana University has written quite a lot about iron and infection.

[Trudi]

[user=732]m.[/user] wrote:

Eugene Weinberg of Indiana University has written quite a lot about iron and infection.

I Googled Eugene Weinberg and came up with this article.  I'd be very cautious in taking iron supplements:

Perspectives and Conclusions
There is growing awareness that transmissible agents are involved in diseases not earlier suspected of being infectious (44-46). A recent review contains a list of 34 degenerative, inflammatory, and neoplastic diseases associated in various ways with specific infectious agents (44). Other chronic inflammatory diseases, such as sarcoidosis, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, Wegener granulomatosis, diabetes mellitus, primary biliary cirrhosis, tropical sprue, and Kawasaki disease may also have infectious etiologies (45). Excessive iron is correlated with synovial damage in rheumatoid arthritis (47) and with impaired glucose metabolism in diabetes (48). The association of Chlamydia pneumoniae (49) and excessive iron (5) with cardiovascular disease is well established. Growth of this pathogen is strongly suppressed by iron restriction (50).

Proving the role of infection in chronic inflammatory diseases and cancer presents challenges (46). The means by which pathogens suppress, subvert, or evade host defenses to establish chronic or latent infection have received little attention. However, the association and causal role of infectious agents in chronic inflammatory diseases and cancer have major implications for public health, treatment, and prevention (44-46).

Iron loading is a risk factor in these illnesses, as well as in classic infectious diseases. Because the prevalence of iron loading in various populations can be remarkably high, routine screening of iron values in host populations could provide valuable information in epidemiologic, diagnostic, prophylactic, and therapeutic studies of emerging infectious diseases.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no3/weinberg.htm

Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[APbeliever]

Thanks Trudi, this was a really informative article. I was actually ingesting a lot of iron supps on my doc's suggestion due to being anemic. RA came on a few months after ingestion of iron supps. I was always high in iron but suddenly I became anemic due to a bleeding episode.

[Trudi]

[user=1212]APbeliever[/user] wrote:

I was always high in iron

Ditto here.  I became anemic with the onset of this disease.  I'm hoping, as stated above by Lynnie, that it will go away once the disease is under control.

I'm glad you liked the article.  There is a lot of information out there.  I'm so glad that people on this board take the time to pass on what they have learned–in this case, thanks “m”.

Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[Lynn]

What about getting iron thru food?  i've been eating lots of pumpkin seeds to try to help my iron levels.  Is that also detremental?  Lynn

[Trudi]

[user=1716]Lynn[/user] wrote:

What about getting iron thru food?  i've been eating lots of pumpkin seeds to try to help my iron levels.  Is that also detremental?  Lynn

I personally feel getting any nutrient from food is the best way.  Just don't go overboard in one direction (everything in moderation :)) and keep an eye on your levels.

Wish I could be more definitive–

Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[A Friend]

Chris,

Re:  Ethanol and Low Iron

Since I posted to your thread here, I've read something that may be helpful to you, another cause for low iron.  I will keyboard this below:

……A body wide candida infection plays havoc on the immune system.  Not only does the immune system become overwhelmed and worn out from fighting the infection, but candida (or other fungus) excrete toxins that further weaken and harm the body. 

The major waste product of candida is acetaldehyde, which produces ethanol.  Ethanol may be great in cars, but in your body it causes excessive fatigue, and reduces strength and stamina.  In addition, it destroys enzymes needed for cell energy, and causes the release of free radicals that can damage DNA. 

Ethanol also inhibits the absorption of iron.  Because iron is one of the most important oxygen supports in the blood, ethanol in your body creates low oxygen levels.  And you know what happens when your body can't oxygenate well…..

Lynn, to me this means: we need to determine if we have fungal overgrowth and deal with it if we want to get well.  The above excerpt was keyboarded from Cancer Fighting Strategies.com site, under Cancer Strategy #6, a link and pages which I've kept in my files.  (My thinking has been that cancer starts in the cells, and our chronic illnesses also wreak havoc on our cells; so, if we keep our cells healthy, it's a “win-win.”)  

The hard part for most of us is to realize we even have a yeast problem (all women don't have the “telltale” symptoms, but we can have developed a systemic fungal yeast overgrowth and not even be aware of it).  I know, for this happened to me over a 2-year period of time, long before I knew anything about AP.  The doctor kept prescribing 10 days of abx about every 2-3 months when I'd get sick again, and never mentioned probiotics.  Some of us are more prone to yeast/fungal overgrowth than others. 

This may not be your problem with your iron; but, if we are chronically ill, I usually bet people have more of a problem with this than they realize. 

Best to you,

AF

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