Infectious vs. Allergy

[Joe M]

Kathy's locked post seemed to be a disagreement about terms.  “resistance” vs suppression”, etc.  I would like to post the following regarding Dr. Brown's work:

“In 1949 at the International Congress on Rheumatic Diseases the possible relationship between mycoplasmas and joint disease was reported. After obtaining one of the first National Institutes of Health (NIH) research grants in 1950, Thomas McPherson Brown, M.D. and colleagues at the arthritis research unit reported the following year that the rheumatoid disease mechanism was more of an immunologic reaction of antigen and antibody (with mycoplasma as the suspected antigen) rather than the infectious and transmissible type.”

SOOO technically if we are following Dr. Brown's theory, calling RA an infectious disease is not correct, and anybody suggesting they are “infected” with mycoplasma would not be in agreement with Dr. Brown. 

My opinion is we should not get hung up on terminology and focus on the treatment.  With that in mind, I think Kathy's question was a valid one.

[Maz]

Hi Joe,

If I'm fully understanding your message, I'm interpreting that quote from the book a bit differently. Mycoplasma are known to be infectious, hopping between hosts, just like any other pathogen is passed from host to host. For instance, mycoplasma pneumoniae, a common respiratory infection. Although, mycoplasma are also known to be passed in ways other than human-to-human contact…insect vectors, like ticks, for instance. I don't think Brown disagreed with this.

Taken in isolation from the rest of the book, this quote could be misleading in this context, because the book goes on to further elaborate that mycoplasma are somewhat peculiar by virtue of the fact that they manage to evade the usual immunological response, because they reside in the host in a unique kind of way; intracellularly, unlike other organisms, thereby tricking the immune system to attack the host's own tissues. Why this occurs in some and others is still not fully understood.

As intracellular organisms, therefore, mycoplasma aren't troubled by bacteriocidal antibiotics which are designed to destroy a pathogen's cell wall, killed outright. On the contrary, they require bacteriostatics that work using a completely different mechanism that doesn't destroy pathogen cell walls, but work by penetrating the body's own cell walls and interfering with the growth and reproduction of these cell wall deficient (CWD) organisms. In this context, bacteriostatic tetracyclines do indeed “suppress” their ability to divide, thrive and create havoc in the host's body. This is the reason they are used.

What Kathy stated initially, and later re-stated emphatically, was that she had developed resistant, “immune strains” of pathogens and  that minocin had effectively “suppressed” them. If such a scenario were to occur and she had developed immune strains of CWD organisms, then minocycline would have had no effect whatsoever in suppressing them in the usual way, at all, because these immune strains would be running rampant. There is a fundamental contradiction here, because you can't suppress something that is immune to suppression. It just doesn't make sense.

It may have been a difference in understanding of word usage, which I had considered and asked her about. That is, that she might have meant that minocycline, at higher doses, was acting more as an “immune response” suppressant, rather than for its bacteriostatic properties. This is often argued in the context of the Harvard Protocol vs pulsed AP dosing. However, she re-emphasized that she felt she had developed immune strains as a direct result of using minocycline, which she felt had been caused by their suppression…but not of her immune system. Dr Brown clearly felt that this was not possible….as do many other physicians today who precribe long term minocycline for the treatment of acne. If it was felt to be dangerous, it just wouldn't be done.

That said, of course we don't yet know everything about every drug's actions and this is just my layman understanding. Fo this reason, it's tiresome to repeatedly get caught up in semantics. As you say, focus on treatment (as any 'lumper' with any conviction would probably agree ;)) is the goal, but comments, such as these and could be taken at face value, when protocols were being mixed, without the advice of an experienced AP physician, could be regarded by newcomers to be the norm, when there has been no clear evidence to date to show otherwise. So, for this reason alone, it was felt that this needed to be addressed.

Joe, your attempt to expand on this thread in the spirit of enlightening discussion is appreciated. I'm sure others will share their thoughts and insights to this thread and these are just my personal ruminations of the quote you shared.

Peace, Maz

[Maz]

PS…didn't address the infectious vs allergy thing, did I? :doh: Again, though, in the context of this quote, the above still stands, but the book goes on to further elucidate that it is the antibody/antigen response evoked by mycoplasma that sensitizes the host tissues. So, in effect, it's not an either/or situation, but both, according to Brown….an infection and a hypersensitivity reaction to it.

You'll recall that I asked Kathy if this could have been what occured in her case. I.e. If slowly ramping up the dose caused commensurate antigen release that may have increased tissue hypersensivity (a herx). She replied that it was not and it was because she had developed resistant strains of infection as a direct result of minocycline suppression of the bugs. Hence, the ensuing rapport.

Peace, Maz 

[Joe M]

Hi Maz,

I think the key is when you said “Why this occurs in some and others is still not fully understood.”  I might have mycos, but don't consider myself infected because I have no symptoms of RA or any other “auto-immune” disease.  I think it goes back, possibly, to the genetic component which would explain why these diseases seem to run in families.  Michelle's mom had RA, as did her aunt.  I pray daily that our kids got my genes when it comes to how their bodies handle the mycos.

Have a great weekend!

Joe

[Maz]

[user=20]Joe M[/user] wrote:

I think it goes back, possibly, to the genetic component which would explain why these diseases seem to run in families.  Michelle's mom had RA, as did her aunt.  I pray daily that our kids got my genes when it comes to how their bodies handle the mycos.

Hi Joe…yes, possibly, but I guess no one really knows for sure, because some people carry the gene, but never acquire the disease. So, as has been pondered many times before, could also be pathogen load/type that is acquired during our lifetimes, more virulent strains that are acquired (such as the recent Lyme article you posted) by some and no others and other environmental factors, like chemical exposures, environmental exposures (like molds and fungus) or even ones we don't even know about yet. Amy Proal cited one microbiologist as having said that it's estimated that they've only been able to identify and name about 0.04% of likely pathogens out there….that's pretty mind-blowing.

I know how you feel about your kids. With my brother's MS, my mother-in-law's psoriatic arthritis and ankylosing spondylitis and my RA, the vista is daunting when I contemplate my girls, too. 😕 As parents it doesn't bear thinking about. 

Well, you have a great weekend, too, Joe, with those beautiful girls of yours (while sorting the laundry)…life doesn't get much better than that.

Peace, Maz

[Cheryl F]

Joe,

Your post alerted me to question why the thread started by KathyO was “locked”, I looked into it and none of us know what happened.  If we decide that it is necessary to lock or close a thread, we will post a final note showing that we have done that.  If you don't see a note, please let us know.  I for one have done this a couple times since we implemented this new BBoard.  It was really sad when the people came forward and felt that they had said something wrong.  To all, if you see a thread locked and there is no comment as to why, please assume that it is an error and let one of the moderators know.

Thanks!

Cheryl

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