FM lithium connection

[linda]

I had an appt with my endocrinologist last week, my thyroid symptoms and levels have not changes using synthroid, so she switched me to Armour; I'm hoping it works better. But when the appt was winding down, she told me something off the record, about which I have since researched and found some surprising information.

She told me that lithium occurs naturally in small amts in water. It is filtered out in most of the US, but not in  all other countries. In countries where it is not filtered out, the crime/suicide rates are lower, and there are fewer cases of autism, CFS, FM, MS, ADD and bipolar disorder. Also, the rates of those diseases have increased in this country as we began to treat our drinking water. (I could find no articles to confirm this). She did not learn this in med school, her sister, who had ADD, was told this by her doctor, and then her sister told her. Her sister's doc also told her that lithium can be purchased OTC! Not in the form or doses in which it is rx'ed for bipolar; it can be purchased as lithium orotate or lithium aspartate, the difference btn those and the rx is the salt that lithium is bound to. Her sister found that not only was she able to concentrate better, she had more energy. My doctor also has hypothyroidism, and has been on synthroid for yrs, but has never really felt like she has sufficient amts of energy; she tried it and got the same results – I know, I know, the placebo effect. I've thought of that, too.

Lithium aspartate is not good for anyone with FM as aspartic acid is an excititoxin, but lithium orotate is bound to orotic acid, which is a key player in the production and use of ATP. Orotic acid is not an excitotoxin. Body builders and athletes have been using just plain orotic acid for over 10 yrs because it allows them to work out longer and also builds muscle mass. Hmm, can you think of anyone who needs more energy and needs to build muscle?
BUT, my question is this, for those taking lithium orotate, is it the lithium that is causing the increased energy, or is it the orotic acid, or both? I could find nothing about orotic acid improving concentration, so I'm believing that is from the lithium. Both can be purchased from vitamin /health food stores, but not pharmacy chains, and they are cheap, about $10 for a mths supply.

So the next question is safety. Orotic acid is very safe, taken in the suggested doses. SUPPOSEDLY, the amt of lithium is small compared to rx levels, and if one has a kidney or heart condition, it should be avoided. I'm going to make the first mistake that all mad scientists make, and become my own guinea pig. I'm going to start out with just orotic acid, for a month, record any changes, then take lithium orotate.

Some of the more crazy articles I read were about scientists who wanted to add lithium back into the local water supply of some communities, like flouride is added; the rationale for adding lithium is to try to reduce the rates of suicide/crime. At one level this bothers me, but if they only add in the same amt that is filtered out, we're only getting the amt that occurs naturally. I understand that we've fouled our water so badly that we have to treat it before we can drink it, but having learned this, I wonder what else is being filtered out that should be there and that our bodies were used to getting in appropriate amts.

[linda]

I should have added that no one should start any supplement without talking to their doctor, and they should start at the lowest dose and slowly increase if necessary.

I have tried to find articles that I could understand about the effect of lithium on tetracyclines, and if they were contraindicated. I could find nothing definitive, and all the articles were about rx levels of lithium, not the smaller OTC doses. However, it is STILL lithium, so you should definitely speak to your doctor. In all likelihood, he/she will look at you like you're crazy – so what's new? – but maybe you could ask them to do some research and get back to you.

[PhilC]

Hi Linda,

I'm glad you posted. I've been wondering how you've been doing and whether you were having trouble accessing this forum.

I don't think it's the placebo effect because I can think of a reason, based on chemistry, why lithium would be helpful (aside from correcting a possible lithium deficiency). I won't go into it further at this time because it's just a hunch; I'll elaborate later if my hunch turns out to be correct.

By the way, a natural way to supplement one's diet with lithium is to use sea salt. One could also eat foods that are known to be high in lithium, such as garlic and certain vegetables and grains.

A couple of informative articles:

Manic depressive psychosis in India and the possible role of lithium as a natural prophylactic. II–Lithium content of diet and some biological fluids in Indian subjects.

Lithium: Occurrence, Dietary Intakes, Nutritional Essentiality

Since we're on the subject of mineral supplementation, are you taking any mineral supplements such as calcium, iron, magnesium, zinc, etc.?

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[Tiff]

This is very interesting, Linda. Thanks for sharing. My mom is bipolar and lithium has been a miracle drug for her for many, many years. When a very irresponsible doctor took her off of it a couple of years ago she ended up in a full blown psychotic break due to severe sleep deprivation. Bipolar disorder is very serious and very poorly understood, and it affects the entire family. That was the summer I was in a brief remission from minocycline. The terrible stress of her illness contributed to my relapse, no doubt. Once she got her meds straight (lithium and the correct dose of thyroid hormone) she pulled out of it and is doing fine again. Although I feel it tends to stabilize her on the slightly depressed side, which is hard.

Bipolar is hereditary, but my brother and I have no signs of it. I can completely imagine that a shortage of naturally occurring lithium would be a problem. I wish there was more conclusive proof, however. Sucks to be our own guinea pigs, doesn't it? Have you run this buy your rheumy by any chance? Please let us know what you find out.

[linda]

As we all know, we learned that we have to be our own doctors most of the time. I have not spoken to my rheumy, but I don't plan to take the lithium orotate until I see him and my endocrinologist again. Orotic acid is safe enough I believe to start on my own.

Phil- Hi! I have not been around much since I've run out of options for getting AP. I do take calcium and magnesium supplements. I was up til all hours last nite researching this fascinating little amino acid, orotic acid. It is a very good transporter of minerals into our cells, like Mg, Ca, potassium and lithium, and it doesn't not separate into ions until it reaches the mitochondria. So apparently this helps us get the most out of our supplements. So we should be buying not just calcium, but calcium orotate, same with Mg -magnesium orotate, etc. Is this why you were asking me if I take any other supplements?

I have always felt that the heart of the fatigue problem is in the mitochondria, where ATP is made, and orotic acid is a key player in the production and efficient use of ATP for energy. This is why I want to try just the orotic acid first. (The muscle heads say to combine it with creatine…but since I'm not going for the bodybuilder look, I think I'll pass).

So far I can't find anything that says orotic acid has any effect on bacteria, but I found a few articles that stated that some mycoplasmas are not capable of using orotic acid. Which is good news, the less food we give the little buggers, the better. One thing I did find out is that long term use of lithium can suppress the thyroid; Idk if this is for all dosages or just the dosage for treating bi-polar. That's all I have right now.

[PhilC]

[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:

Phil- Hi! I have not been around much since I've run out of options for getting AP.

Hi Linda,

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Would you please elaborate a little?

[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:

I do take calcium and magnesium supplements. I was up til all hours last nite researching this fascinating little amino acid, orotic acid. It is a very good transporter of minerals into our cells, like Mg, Ca, potassium and lithium, and it doesn't not separate into ions until it reaches the mitochondria. So apparently this helps us get the most out of our supplements. So we should be buying not just calcium, but calcium orotate, same with Mg -magnesium orotate, etc. Is this why you were asking me if I take any other supplements?

Kind of. How much calcium and magnesium are you taking, and what form are they in?

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[linda]

Phil,

I'm 5 hours away from an AP doctor,  in Lufkin, however I did see her last year. The appt did not go well, when she saw that I was on prednisone she told me that she didn't want to take me on as a patient because so many of her patients failed on AP because they couldn't wean off the pred. She did agree to treat me and sent me home with a rx for minocin. I had a bad experience a few yrs ago with AP, the doctor I saw, when I lived in AZ, never told me I needed to be taking probiotics, when I finally found out, 10 mths later, my stomach was a mess, and it has never healed completely. I asked the doctor I saw in Lufkin if she would do the IV abx for me, to bypass my stomach, but she didn't want to fight the insurance company so she said no, unless I paid for it myself. There is another AP doctor near Lufkin, but she does not accept insurance for the IV abx. I can't afford to pay out of pocket for the IV's. I took the rx for minocin home and started taking it, and I hung in there for 2 mths but my stomach was getting worse by the day, and I finally had to stop. I emailed the doctor and asked her again about the IV's, but she wouldn't do it. So that's why I'm out of options as far as AP is concerned.

Btw, when I saw the doctor last year, I was taking 15 mg pred/day. Over the last year I've slowly decreased the dose and I now only take 3 mg/day, with the help of my rheumy. Which is great, I was diabetic with high blood pressure a year ago, and now both of those conditions have disappeared, but my PsA is very bad, and the FMS is a bad as it's ever been. It's a trade off, but I feel I had no choice.

My Ca is just calcium carbonate w/Vit D3, 500 mg bid. The Mg is magnesium oxide, 250 mg bid. I have been to 3 vitamin/nutrition stores and none of them carry orotic acid by itself, it's always with creatine, so I'm going to have to order it online. But I'm wondering, if it's so wonderful, why is it so difficult to find? One store did have lithium orotate, but it was a brand I had never heard of and it was obviously not a big seller; there were only 3 bottles on the shelf and they were all dusty.

[PhilC]

Hi Linda,

Were you taking the Minocin on an empty stomach or with food? There are probably other options you could explore… Let me think about that some more.

As for calcium and magnesium, I was taking almost the same thing for a long time. Calcium carbonate and magnesium oxide are the most common forms of those minerals available, but neither is very good. I now take calcium citrate and magnesium citrate. Sometimes I take magnesium malate. Do a search on it; it's supposed to be good for people with fibromyalgia. Almost immediately after I started taking magnesium malate, I noticed that I was less tired and that my (mild) brain fog went away.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[PhilC]

Hi Tiff,

How is your mother's heart? Any problems there?

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[Tiff]

[user=1429]PhilC[/user] wrote:

Hi Tiff,

How is your mother's heart? Any problems there?

Phil

She has a mild congenital heart problem and for years she worried about high triglycerides. I am not sure what happened about that. My mom has had a lot of health issues that have been more bark than bite. But being a little OCD is part of being bi-polar, so it is hard for me to know what to take seriously. She has never had a heart event although she has smoked heavily for over 40 years. Go figure!

[PhilC]

[user=45]Tiff[/user] wrote:

She has a mild congenital heart problem and for years she worried about high triglycerides.

Hi Tiff,

What kind of mild congenital heart problem does she have, and when did she find out about it?

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[PhilC]

[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:

I had a bad experience a few yrs ago with AP, the doctor I saw, when I lived in AZ, never told me I needed to be taking probiotics, when I finally found out, 10 mths later, my stomach was a mess, and it has never healed completely. I asked the doctor I saw in Lufkin if she would do the IV abx for me, to bypass my stomach, but she didn't want to fight the insurance company so she said no, unless I paid for it myself. There is another AP doctor near Lufkin, but she does not accept insurance for the IV abx. I can't afford to pay out of pocket for the IV's. I took the rx for minocin home and started taking it, and I hung in there for 2 mths but my stomach was getting worse by the day, and I finally had to stop. I emailed the doctor and asked her again about the IV's, but she wouldn't do it. So that's why I'm out of options as far as AP is concerned.

Hi Linda,

I don't think that you are totally out of options as far as the AP is concerned. You could ask the doctor to write you a prescription for Monodox, which is doxycycline monohydrate. It is supposed to be fairly gentle on the stomach. I am planning to switch to it when my current supply of doxy runs out. Not the brand name, though, since it is very expensive. I'll have the prescription filled with the generic made by Par Pharmaceutical.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[Eva Holloway]

Linda,

I sure could use more muscles or at least some more muscle strength. I may have to look into this orotic acid.:D

Hope things are going better for you. I have been very busy with the German choir and we have planned this trip for next year and I have been working with a choir director in Germany to get it all together.

I am walking better, still slow and with either a cane or walker but no more pain in my hip. Looks like it is healed enough.

Take care,

Eva:D

Eva Holloway

[Trudi]

[user=236]Eva Holloway[/user] wrote:

I am walking better, still slow and with either a cane or walker but no more pain in my hip. Looks like it is healed enough.

Eva–

That is wonderful to read!!  Seems like there is no stopping you :)!!

Take care,

Trudi

Lyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?

[linda]

I'm so glad you're hip is healed, Trudi! You're a tough girl! I can'y find orotic acid anywhere by itself, all I can find is magnesium orotate, calcium orotate, potassium orotate and lithium orotate. I guess it depends on what you need, but if you already take calcium or magnesium, you could replace the kind you're taking with these. The orotic acid in them is a better transporter across cell walls so we get more of the minerals, so they are more effective. I would think with your hip, that the calcium orotate and magnesium orotate would be good for your hip. I don't know anything else, other than I have only found these products online, but you might have better luck than me at ypur local vitamin stores.

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