Clomid puts me in remission! And AP seems finally to be working…

[spacehoppa]

Thanks again Maz, You are a veritable gold mine of info. Yes, it's funny how the cholesterol connection only occurred to me last week, when I was researching hormones and how they're made. I didn't put the finaly pieces of the puzzle together like you have though. I just assumed that maybe we've got a genetic tendency to low cholesterol.

But how interesting that yours was high and has become low since becoming infected. My mum's cholesterol is 2 point something – I forget the exact number – and she has RA too and has had a stroke also. Strangely enough, when she had the stroke and went into hospital, she also contracted MRSA and has been on a daily dose of tetracycline ever since, which will have reduced her bacterial load. This may be why her cholestrol is in a more normal range. (They put her on statins too of course, despite the fact that her cholesterol blood results clearly don't support it.)

My own cholesterol results were 2 point something, 2.8 maybe – I can't remember. I asked the nurse what it meant and she said that it was off the scale low. (Sorry, I don't know what it translates to in your units.) But she said it was good that it was low (it's meant to be less than 5 in the UK). So I didn't worry about it until I read that all hormones are made from cholesterol and it suddenly hit me that one thing I know about our family members with RA is the low cholesterol results. (My cousin has RA too, I must ask her what her cholesterol results are if she's ever had them checked.)

I'm convinced you're right about this connection, even though it's just drawn from logical conclusions on your part, and I agree that it's frankly scary that the doctors don't see the connections themselves.

I don't know what's to be done about that, I really don't. My own rheumatologists won't even accept the bacterial connection, much less the hormonal one.

As ever, very nice talking to you Maz. Thanks for taking the trouble… More than all my doctors combined so far!

[spacehoppa]

Oh, another little postscript… I asked Dr Trevor Marshall about the clomid/estrogen connection, as it's something he worked on early on in his medical career. I got this reply, but didn't fully understand it.

Can anyone here shed some light? Thanks!

“Back in 1978 I started out my Medical career by curing infertility using pulses of Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH). See this page for some of the papers my group published:
http://TrevorMarshall.com/gnrh.htm

That is effectively what they are trying to do with this drug, modulate GnRH, but in a far less precise manner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomiphene

What a crazy situation Medicine has evolved into – pouring drug on top of drug on top of drug. It's crazy.

Actually, we have had several woman become pregnant after starting the MP. It is one of the best ways to overcome the way the disease has unbalanced your hormones, and thus restore fertility.

Clomid is another short-term blind alley.

Note that the Estrogen Receptor and the VDR are like Ying and Yang, at opposite ends of the immune (and fertility) systems. They are complementary.

The advocates here at the CureMyTh1.org message board can direct you to where all this stuff has been discussed before.

..Trevor..”

[Serenity]

[user=415]spacehoppa[/user] wrote:

The only problem I have now is that I feel a little fatigued between 10am and 12 midday when yesterday's steroids have worn off and today's haven't kicked in yet. (All suggestions welcome.)

I know how overwhelming it is to have yet another natural supplement thrown your way, but I have to say, I was AMAZED by how well olive leaf extract helped with my fatigue.  It was an immediate, noticeable difference, at least for me.  I bought the tincture at my local Whole Foods.

VERY interesting thread.  Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and research!

[Maz]

[user=11]linda[/user] wrote:

As for cholesterol, mine runs a little high in me and my mother's side of the family.

Hi Linda,

Spacehoppa must have been reading my mind :shock:, because I was just mulling over why some people with rheumatoid disease may actually have high cholesterol levels. Then, it occured to me that it may have something to do with Vit D imbalance….you know, that crazy seesaw between D 25 and D 1-25 thing.

I just came across this article…it doesn't in any way reflect Marshall's work, of course, but found it interesting nonetheless…first line says it all. “One of cholesterol's many functions in the body is to act as a precursor to vitamin D.”

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Vitamin-D.html

Peace, Maz

[spacehoppa]

Hi Maz,

Yes, I read that site too and was wondering whether maybe the Marshall Protocol is starving the little mycoplasma buggers of cholesterol (as foods high in vit D also seem to be high in cholesterol) and killing them that way, as well as by limiting vitamin D.

[spacehoppa]

Serenity, Thanks for the olive leaf extract suggestion. I have taken most supplements in my time – but not that one! I'll look it up.

Cheers, ruth

[anewday]

Hi spacehoppa! I just posted today about infertility in men with autoimmune disease. I am still trying to understand all these connections and medical terms. It's mind boggling. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone sometimes.

I'm so glad you are seeing such relief!

My dh and I are now struggling with secondary infertility. My dh wants to begin  AP soon, but we've held off because of TTC…which hasn't happened and of course we're concerned about continued damage to dh's joints while not on AP or any biologics. He may start AP as early as July and our thoughts were always that once he does, we can't keep trying for a baby. The RA drugs you are currently taking, are they ones considered safe in pregnancy? It has been our understanding that due to lack of data, much is unknown about safety of any of them, including the antibiotics. If you have any information on these, it would be so helpful! Taking something while waiting to go on AP while TTC may be better than the course he's currently on….

The following comment on MP is very interesting – thank you for this helpful information!!! We will definately check this option out now!

Best of wishes to you!

[user=415]spacehoppa[/user] wrote

Actually, we have had several woman become pregnant after starting the MP. It is one of the best ways to overcome the way the disease has unbalanced your hormones, and thus restore fertility.

[spacehoppa]

Hi Dawn,

I'm afraid I don't know about the effects of these drugs on male fertility. It's just not something I've needed to look into, so I haven't done.

But that said, I got pregnant with my son James whilst taking anti-inflammatories and prednisone, so I'm confident they're okay – at least for women. In fact, anti-inflammatories can interfere with ovulation and implantation, but they're not actually dangerous to the baby until the third trimester of pregnancy, so they're safe until the point of conception – if not very helpful.

I think steroids (prednisolone) are usually considered the safest drug whilst trying to get pregnant, so perhaps your husband could take those. He won't want to be on them long-term if he can help it, but as a short term measure, they are very effective indeed.

I'm also taking humira (adalimumab – sp?) whilst trying to get pregnant. Whilst this isn't recommended, my arthritis is bad enough that I really need this drug in order to function. He should look into it, as the biologics might be a good option for him in the short term.

I don't know about the effect of antibiotics on sperm, but people get pregnant all the time whilst using antibiotics, and the 3 times a week dose is so low, I wouldn't think it'd be a problem at all.

Obviously you need to talk to your doctor about this and google it as much as possible, but I think it's important to get your husband treatment asap, or else he won't be in the mood to do the deed :roll-laugh: . I know when I'm flaring sex is the last thing on my mind.

A couple of drugs I know men should avoid whilst trying to conceive are methotrexate and sulphasalazine.

I understand about wanting to get pregnant before sorting out the disease, I really do. I feel the same way as I'm 35 and not getting any younger. I hope you guys conceive soon!

Just as an aside, I've just been to see my acupuncturist and she says my pulses are very slippery, which can mean pregnancy (or it might just be the effect of clomid), so I'm happy right now and keeping my fingers crossed. I've got them crossed for you too!

Oh, and try and get your husband to take the male version of fertilaid. I use the female version and it's good stuff! Best of luck!

[mom]

This is a very informative post and I've been thinking a lot lately about the hormonal connection with my RA diagnosis.
I was diagnosed with RA within weeks of delivering my 1st child. I also had few miscarriages prior to my 1st pregnancy which sustained after supplementing with progesterone for the 1st trimester. I also flare big time for 1-3 days prior to my periods.

I know that many other women go through same scenarios but don't end up with RA or any type of AI disease. This is where genetics probably play a role and for those of us who have the autoimmune link or weak immune system are more likely to be affected by severe hormonal fluctuations or long lasting infections. Many people come down with lyme disease but not all end up with RA, only those with weak immune system.

[spacehoppa]

I was watching that Trevor Marshall video yesterday on http://www.ctlymedisease.org/videoclips.htm, which was absolutely fascinating by the way, and gave me a newfound respect for the man.

And I was thinking about some of the things he said, such as there being very few real allergic reactions to antibiotics, but lots of misdiagnosed herxes. That made a lot of sense to me as I thought I was having an allergic reaction to penicillin last year, when, with hindsight I just got the itchies through die-off. I wonder how many people are off these meds for life just because they got dizzy or itchy through bacterial die-off?

Anyway, back to the point of the thread. I was thinking that lots of my friends had aching joints after giving birth that lasted for months and months, then slowly got better. And lots of them had postnatal depression, though interestingly it was usually one or the other. I had the aching joints, but with RA that's no surprise.

I was just wondering whether, after the immune system is suppressed for nine months, and then the hormones crash and immunity kicks in again, a load of bug killing happens all at once. Maybe PND is just an emotional herx?? Maybe if women were to take activated charcoal or clay baths, or the olive oil drink, they'd feel better sooner? Maybe that's a bit simplistic, but it's not that out there I don't think.

Looking back over my fertility chart keeping, it seems I always flare just after ovulation and before my period. Funny that I never noticed it before. I've spent 20 years saying, 'God, I'm flaring horribly, why is that, is it something I ate, stress or whatever?'. Can it really be this simple an explanation?

What I'd really like to know now is do I have measurably low estrogen, and if so, is it something I should correct? I have a feeling that it would just be more immune suppression and putting the real problem – the bacterial infection – off to a later date. And that's okay whilst I'm trying to get pregnant, but once the baby comes, I'd really like to get serious about getting rid of it forever.

Thanks for the fascinating chat everyone. If anyone else has more stories of a hormonal connection, pleast post them.

Cheers, ruth

[spacehoppa]

Here's an interesting article about estrogen deficiency and it's role in heart disease in rats.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18070678

“These observations indicate that upregulation of TNF-a during estrogen deficiency may contribute to enhance vascular constriction by altering the vascular angiotensin II system.”

It's the link to angiotensin II that peaks my interest as well, as this is what olmesartan (Benicar) aims to block isn't it? I wonder whether estrogen has a similar (or maybe even opposite) effect to Benicar?

[spacehoppa]

OK, this article answers my own question I think:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12810582

“These data suggest that E(2), acting through its receptors in the ZG, reduces AT(1)R density and Ang II-induced aldosterone release”

Hmm, maybe estrogen is a good thing?? Must ask these same questions to Trevor Marshall again and see if I can get a clearer response.

[spacehoppa]

OK, and another really excellent excerpt from a book:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wM__bpzFNY4C&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=angiotensin+II+estrogen&source=web&ots=QBm2EDrjOv&sig=jWhO2NIIfOP2RKWNimgAS97hp9Q&hl=en

saying the same thing – i.e. that estrogen is an ACE inhibitor and blocks the angiotensin II receptor, the same as Benicar, by the looks of it.

Geez, maybe we're all estrogen deficient, and that's why our bodies can't see the bacterial infection to destroy it once and for all.

OK, probably not that simple, but I will ask Trevor Marshall anyway.

[JBJBJB]

[user=27]Maz[/user] wrote:

 I was just mulling over why some people with rheumatoid disease may actually have high cholesterol levels

Maz,

Another variable could be if these people with rheumatoid disease were on prednisone. If I remember correctly, prednisione does cause higher cholesterol level as side effects.

Many years back, a lot of SD patients with pulmonary fibrosis “developed” renal disease and high cholesterol problem. The study later found all of these patients were given 60 mg prednisone to control the inflammation. Long term uses of this high dosage drug eventually can damage kidney regardless you got SD, or DS.   

JB

[spacehoppa]

OK, I may have got caught up in my own hyperbole 😀 .

Thinking on it again, Benicar not only blockades the angiotensin II receptor, it also binds to the vitamin D receptor. Feel free to correct me at any point here…

So, maybe it's the angiotensin II blockading that gives the immune suppression and symptom relief, and binding to the VDR that does the work of upregulating the immune system, to enable it to clear the bugs (along with the antibiotics).

If so, estrogen would not be enough on its own.

Bah 🙁

Mind you estrogen, vit D avoidance and antibiotics might do more than classic AP alone?

[Author]

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