Chinese herb and TH17 pathway-Scl,RA,Psoria,,,Autoimmunity

[Suzy]

Great article on the TH17 pathway and Amino Acid Response pathway (AAR). Apparently this herb (Chang Shan) is derived from a type of Hydrangea in Tibet and Nepal and has been used for thousands of years by the chinese to treat malaria. The compound in it is Halofuginone. Anyway, you can read the article. If the chinese have already been using it for that long then they must know a lot about it.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/241571.php

“HF prevents the autoimmune response without dampening immunity altogether,” said Malcolm Whitman, a professor of developmental biology at Harvard School of Dental Medicine and senior author on the new study.

Prior research had shown that HF reduced scarring in tissue, scleroderma (a tightening of the skin), multiple sclerosis, scar formation and even cancer progression.

In 2009, Keller and colleagues reported that HF protects against harmful Th17 immune cells without affecting other beneficial immune cells. Recognized only since 2006, Th17 cells are “bad actors,” implicated in many autoimmune diseases such as inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis and psoriasis.

As such, it was one of a new arsenal of drugs that selectively inhibits autoimmune pathology without suppressing the immune system globally. Further analysis showed that HF was somehow turning on genes involved in a newly discovered pathway called the amino acid response pathway, or AAR.

Does anyone else know anything on this or chinese herbal medicine…such as where would one get some of this herb, reputably of course ??

This sounds Good and needs more investigation !

Anyone with any additional info please share 🙂 …..Suzy

[Suzy]

I saw there was some initial research on this in 09′. Heard some were trying for Scleroderma. Can’t seem to find a lot of info or discussions on this yet… a lot to weed through !

[Krys]

Very interesting! I would certainly benefit from it. I’ll ask my TCM doctor about it.
If you Google Chang Shan, there a few web sites showing up and some stores selling it, too.

http://changshansupplement.com/
This one explains the difference between what is offered (Chang Shan, Tu Chang Shan or Halofuginone ScleroEze):
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090830152152AAyA3xj

I checked only 2 stores. If buying, one would have to make sure that it is Chang Shan and not Tu Chang shan. They show up together in the stores selling them.
http://www.myherbs.net/findit.asp You have to write in the search window: Chang Shan
It’s $10/1lb. The powdered one is the wrong one.
The customer service there is excellent. This web store was recommended on Buhner’s Yahoo support group as a good and very cheap source of herbs. They do not (unfortunately) list the brand. For that you would have to email customer service. If possible, insist on Plum Flower brand (Taiwanese): it is pure and does not contain sulfur, phosphates, aluminum phosphate. There is another brand that supplies the hospitals, that is considered even better, but I do not remember the name.
http://www.ktbotanicals.com carries it but it is sold out!

There must be more stores carrying it. It would just take some time to check them all out.
Krys

[PhilC]

Actually, there is no halofuginone in Chang Shan. Halofuginone is a synthetic drug made from febrifugine, which is found in Chang Shan. Halofuginone is a veterinary medicine. It is a coccidiostat.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[Krys]

@PhilC wrote:

Halofuginone is a synthetic drug made from febrifugine, which is found in Chang Shan.

Phil, thanks for spotting this!

[Suzy]

Thanks Krys for the links and info…..Checking that out now. Phil thanks for the clarification on that compound. I know I should not take everything at face value or first read. I am usually the skeptic in this …guess i was just full of hope at the thought of a simple compound offering relief. Which it may…but I should get my info straight. Thanks for catching that 🙂

[PhilC]

Actually, the chemical structures of halofuginone and febrifugine are very close, close enough that febrifugine may possess the same biological activity (though not necessarily the same potency) as halofuginone.

A common name for Chang Shan is dichroa root, and the scientific name is Dichroa febrifuga Lour. I did a search on PubMed for “Dichroa febrifuga” and found the following:

The production of nitric oxide and TNF-alpha in peritoneal macrophages is inhibited by Dichroa febrifuga Lour.

Anti-inflammatory effects of aqueous extract from Dichroa febrifuga root in rat liver.

Dichroa febrifuga Lour. inhibits the production of IL-1beta and IL-6 through blocking NF-kappaB, MAPK and Akt activation in macrophages.

I think it looks promising (so far). 🙂

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[Suzy]

Hey Kris…found the brand Plum Flower you were talking about on the link you provided. Thanks for that info. Now I have a question perhaps you may know or anyone else. I see these are whole herbs so I am wondering how these are used exactly. I am researching this and thought you may have some experience with this or someone else may. I would appreciate any info !! Are you considering this also? Just curious…..

Thanks, Suzy

http://www.myherbs.net/productinfo.asp?prod=5658

[Krys]

@Suzy wrote:

I see these are whole herbs so I am wondering how these are used exactly. I am researching this and thought you may have some experience with this or someone else may. I would appreciate any info !! Are you considering this also?

http://www.myherbs.net/productinfo.asp?prod=5658

Yes, I want to take this herb. I have already ordered it through my TCM doc.
I mean to start using myherbs (Lyme herbs +…) and will order Chang Shan from them and see see how the 2 brands compare.

Many herbalists think that taking whole herb is better than taking an extract. There are 2-3 ways of taking it:
-if it is not powdered, one can grind it in the coffee grinder and encapsulate it. I prefer to buy already ground herbs and I like encapsulating them myself. Myherbs can encapsulate herbs for you if you wish (that means they will be ground by them and that solves the problem of the occasional hassle when grinding is not easy) and hopefully they can offer guidance on the dosage.
-decoction is probably the choice nr 1 for most herbalists. I am not that keen on that one. But our body can utilize herbs better if taken this way, as once the taste is recognized within the mouth, the digestive system releases all the enzymes necessary for digestion and assimilation of the herb.
Some herbs are just brewed like tea (hot water poured over the herb), some need to be boiled, some are best taken as a tincture.
I think it would be best to call the customer service at myherbs and ask about the best way to take Chang Shan, the best dosage, if it should be started slowly and increased over time and also if they have any info about possible toxicity.
I’ll ask my TCM doc which method of taking it is best, then we can compare the info.

I’m mentioning possible toxicity only because I’ve received info (nr. 2) that I don’t know how to interpret:
1. I asked my TCM doc about Chang Shan and his first response was that he needs to check the Latin name and the herbal data base, as there is a Chinese herb used for autoimmune problems that is highly toxic. When I was having my acupuncture session, he checked it out and said that this herb is fine; the toxic one is an entirely different herb.
2. I emailed a Chinese herbalist (through a website) and received a reply that Chang Shan is not that commonly used. It is used for parasites, and 50% patients experience nausea and vomiting.
Even though the word “toxicity” was not used, this second opinion introduced doubt and now I would like that doubt cleared. So if you find out anything, please share!

I’ve just noticed that Amazon carries an extract:
http://www.amazon.com/concentrated-Extract-Powder-dichroae-999brand/dp/B004VT2180 I know nothing about 999 brand.

The extracts are easier to take because the amount taken is smaller. But most extracts do not contain the whole herb. Some still use a small amount of whole herb + the extract. This way is mostly done by various pharmaceutical or herbal companies selling herbal extracts in a tablet or capsule form. Extract in a powdered form, as far as I know, does not contain any amount of whole herb. Another downside of the extract is that dextrose is often added. It is probably perfectly fine for most people, it helps with the taste and makes the herb easier to dissolve in water, but I am allergic to corn and dextrose is most commonly a corn derivative. Sorry, if it starts sounding confusing.
Checking everything out can be quite a headache!

I’ve just noticed this thread on curezone: http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1704448 I have no time to check the links, but one is supposed to give the dosage.
Warm wishes, Krys

[StrikesLikeColdSteel]

Hello,

I’m a complete newbie here, but I found this thread via google and I wanted to ask if somebody here has any experience with Chang Shan. Especially about what dosage you’re using and if you notice any side effects.

I’ve got Graves’ disease and I just received a bottle of Plum Flower dichroa febrifuga extract. From what I read I noticed that dosage 5-10 g is recommended for malaria, and for auto-immune diseases smaller (but not stated) doses are recommended… So I don’t know how much I should take, especially that the extract I have is supposed to be concentrated. Any tips?

Oh, and the seller told me that this product will be discontinued, Plum Flower will no longer produce it.

P.S. I live in Poland and there are no Chinese pharmacies or Chinese medicine centres here, at least I can’t find any, so that is not an option.

[Krys]

@StrikesLikeColdSteel wrote:

Hello,

I’m a complete newbie here, but I found this thread via google and I wanted to ask if somebody here has any experience with Chang Shan. Especially about what dosage you’re using and if you notice any side effects.

I’ve got Graves’ disease and I just received a bottle of Plum Flower dichroa febrifuga extract. From what I read I noticed that dosage 5-10 g is recommended for malaria, and for auto-immune diseases smaller (but not stated) doses are recommended… So I don’t know how much I should take, especially that the extract I have is supposed to be concentrated. Any tips?

Hi StrikesLikeColdSteel,
Warm welcome to RBF!
I’m so sorry that I’ve missed your post. Most probably nobody on RBF is taking Chang Shan and that is the reason why you have not received any replies.
I meant to take it but it took 5 weeks to arrive and by that time my autoimmune problems were basically gone. The TCM treatment I was receiving worked wonders and there was no need to start Chang Shan.

I hope you have managed to find the exact dosage. The link I have supplied at my previous post does not specify the exact amount. It only says the amount for autoimmune diseases is 10-20 smaller than for malaria.

When I asked my TCM doc about the dosage (and that applied to my condition and the use of the cut root which was to be boiled in 8 oz water), I was given the amount in grams, which I do not remember now, and as I do not have the means to measure very small amounts, I was shown to put the cut root in the middle of the palm, about 1 inch diameter. So I guess the height would be about 1/2 inch.
Very, very imprecise translation of that into spoonfuls would be a slightly rounded teaspoon.
Your Plum Flower Extract probably specifies on the bottle: “Full Spectrum 5:1 Herb Extract Powder” which means it is 5 times stronger than whole herb. So if I had an extract instead of the cut roots, I would divide the slightly rounded tsp into 5 to get the amount I should boil! Though, on second thoughts, the extract powders as given in TCM formulas are not taken boiled, but just dissolved in water, so …..
The CureZone thread about Chang Shan mentions that it takes 2-4 months to see positive results and that taking ginger tea 30 minutes prior to Chang Shan may help with nausea if that shows up as a reaction to the herb for you.
I hope you have come up with more precise dosage and have found other helpful solutions.
Warm wishes, Krys

[cavalier]

May I suggest for dosage you check with a Accupuncturist who is trained in chinese herbs to consult with. I have the seeds here – for me to grow into plants and I have the above who told me he would compound the roots for me once i got them that far.

The places that sold this herb would not sell but to a doctor & they would not sell to him either – so dunno how you managed to get the Plum Flower brand there is something close to this but not the same thing off a little in the herb name.

A Ga. company is wanting the rights to compound this into a med & has tied up alot of the resources here in the states it is classified as in orphan status and gone thru 2 trials but not yet released for general use.

Anyways my acupuncturist said he would compound the roots for me once grown himself – he is experienced with this & he is growing his own for his own purposes as well. Anyways I would check around they have to have extra training – but mine is very comfortable with this root & dosages he has a reference book that lists it & the strenghts for usage.

Jill SD

[StrikesLikeColdSteel]

Hello again, I haven’t been here for a while 🙂

Soon after I bought that extract it was discontinued and I only took that one bottle, in recommended dosage. I took it with ginger and honey and I haven’t experienced any nausea or any side effects at all. It tasted similar to tonic water (with quinine), in fact pretty appetising. But one package wasn’t enough to see if it helps or not. I couldn’t find it in the Internet, so I gave up, especially that I felt better. Currently I try to keep a diet to make my illness better (no grains etc). However, I’m still worried because in long run Graves’ disease ruins thyroid and mainstream medications are harmful and in my opinion don’t work very well (in my case they worked too strong and cause hypothyroid-like effects).

Lately I was asked about this root by someone and I noticed it appeared again by 999 brand. I’m thinking about buying it again. Also, that person asked me about Chang Shan and taking into account that for some people this illness takes much harder turn it may be worth trying.

I’m wondering about those side effects. Does anybody know what they are? Are they dangerous? I mean ‘slightly toxic’ doesn’t say anything. A lot of stuff is slightly toxic, especially in large doses and they are sold as food without limitations. For example laurel leaves. So why dichroa febrifuga is so hard to buy?

Cavalier, I would if I could but there’s no Chinese medicine practitioners where I live – some acupuncture or diet specialists, but they aren’t oriented in herbs and medicine. I went to one and even tried 5 elements diet but I felt much worse so I stopped.
I was actually thinking about growing my own but I have no garden and I think to obtain roots one would have to grow pretty many shrubs, so not something I could plant in a pot. 🙁

[Maz]

@StrikesLikeColdSteel wrote:

I’m a complete newbie here, but I found this thread via google and I wanted to ask if somebody here has any experience with Chang Shan. Especially about what dosage you’re using and if you notice any side effects.

I’ve got Graves’ disease and I just received a bottle of Plum Flower dichroa febrifuga extract. From what I read I noticed that dosage 5-10 g is recommended for malaria, and for auto-immune diseases smaller (but not stated) doses are recommended… So I don’t know how much I should take, especially that the extract I have is supposed to be concentrated. Any tips?

Hi StrikesLikeColdSteel,

Sounds like you found this discussion forum by accident. It’s actually a forum for folks who suffer from rheumatic autoimmune diseases and who are choosing antibiotic therapy for treatment as per rheumatologist Dr. McPherson Brown. Sometimes we discuss adjunctive supports and conventional medicines, but the focus is antibiotic therapy. Sounds like your best bet would be to join a naturopathic thyroid discussion forum or to visit a naturopathic doctor who should be able to guide you on dosing of this herb for Grave’s….or you could call the supplier of this supplement and ask for their insight. Good luck! My Mum had Grave’s and I know it isn’t any picnic.

[cavalier]

Hi Strikes – as a FYI I have not grown my seeds yet nor have I taken this herb, as supplies were so dried up there was not any to be had. This looks like this status may have changed I have not searched for this lately.

It does look interesting as to if it can offer some help.

I hope you can find some help for graves.

Best – Jill SD, Lyme CPn Candida & babesia

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