Cataplex for Lyme treatment?

[mlouise]

Anyone,

Has anyone ever used the Cateplex formulas for Lyme treatment. I have a positive blood test for Lyme antibodies, but no active infection. I wanted to go on a Lyme protocol, but my SD doc did not recommend it. he felt I should stick with the mino and IV clindy. He gave me Cataplex C and Cataplex F and magnesium citrate with C. He told me to take 10 tablets of each and 1 Tbp of citrate in one quart of water every day. This is nearly impossible for me to handle. I get very ill every time I try to take all of this. I was thinking that maybe it is because my body can not handle so much vitamin C? Does Anyone have a clue?
I realize that he is hoping to build my immune system with the vitamin C, but will this work? Should I use the Lyme antibiotics instead?
If I use the antibiotics for Lyme would I need to go off of the mino? I am afraid of a reversal of the SD especially since I think I am just finally getting ahead.

Any thoughts? Louise

[RAinPA]

Hi Louise,
Dr. B put me on the Cataplex regime also and I also could not take it, it made me so sick! I think it would be ok to take the mino along with the antibiotics for lyme. The Dr I’m seeing now has me on minocycline as well as an antibiotic for lyme (He also has me on herbal drops thats supposed to help with lyme also). I’m sure someone with alot more expertise in this subject will chime in but I wanted to let you know that you are not alone in the Cataplex making you sick. Good luck!

Amy

[Lynne G.SD]

Hi Marie Luoise;
I also have SD/Lyme.My doctor has me on 200mg Mino evry other day,600mg Clidamycin every other day,Metronidazole 5 days on and 5 days off,3 doses of wormwood a day and Diflucan when needed.Later she will replace the Metro with Zith as she rotates them every few months.She had a very bad case of Fibro/Chonic Fatigue and Lyme and is perfectly well now.My SD has been gone for several years but when I get over tired it wants to come back so she upped that dosage.
Lynne

[Parisa]

Louise,

An experienced LLMD would use a complete arsenal of antbiotics and knows how to combine them. There’s no reason why you can’t stay on Mino and do other antibiotics. Of course, there are some combinations that you can’t do with the mino but there are plenty of combinations that you can do.

[Maz]

@mlouise wrote:

I was thinking that maybe it is because my body can not handle so much vitamin C? Does Anyone have a clue?
I realize that he is hoping to build my immune system with the vitamin C, but will this work? Should I use the Lyme antibiotics instead?
If I use the antibiotics for Lyme would I need to go off of the mino? I am afraid of a reversal of the SD especially since I think I am just finally getting ahead.

Hi MLouise,

I’m sorry I can’t share anything on the Cataplex, but RAinPA’s experience speaks volumes and will hopefully help.

High dose Vit C will produce detox and die-off symptoms and, as SDers have trouble with detoxing, this could account for feeling rough. I’m not sure whether or not Vit C is a good idea for SD, in any case, as it promotes collagen.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/collagen.html

Just mentioning this, as there is some controversy surrounding the topic of Vit C for SD…some say it’s okay and some not. A bit like the Vit D question. My rational brain says one thing and then another on this, so I can’t really help, except to say that if Vit C promotes collagen and SDers suffer from an over-production of collagen, making detoxification even more challenging, then this could be why SDers experience worse detox symptoms while using it. Just a fellow patient suggestion,but in the case of SD it is just wise to carefully assess the pros and cons for one’s self and discuss them with the treating doc. 😉 There are other very good ways for the body to detox, including glutathione IV pushes and anything glutathione-promoting.

As everyone else has has already said, no need to stop mino for Lyme protocols (provided the anti-microbials used are not contraindicated for use together) and mino should always remain the core staple for SD for its wonderful immune-modulating effects. Whatever else is added is then a bonus and, additionally, the use of combination therapy is a good way to help prevent resistance, which is very important in targeting Lyme, which is so pleomorphic.

[PhilC]

Hi Louise,
@mlouise wrote:

He gave me Cataplex C and Cataplex F and magnesium citrate with C. He told me to take 10 tablets of each and 1 Tbp of citrate in one quart of water every day. This is nearly impossible for me to handle. I get very ill every time I try to take all of this.

“Very ill” is too vague. Please describe what happens when you try to take all of that.

Also, what is “magnesium citrate with C”? I need to know exactly what product that is so I can examine the ingredients list and other info for that product.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[notabene]

Hi Louise – Were you taking everything at once? A quart of cold water plus 20 tablets would overwhelm the stomach, I would think. I can barely stomach the first tall glass of cold water with the minocycline first thing in the morning. It’s not the mino, it’s the water.

Second-sixth glasses of water to accompany assorted vitamins, Procardia and mino #2 are a challenge to get down. I try to vary it by adding lemon, orange, strawberry, or pomegranate juice.

[lynnie_sydney]

I can barely stomach the first tall glass of cold water with the minocycline first thing in the morning. It’s not the mino, it’s the water.

Notabene – I always had an issue with drinking the required amount of water per day (even before AP). And I realised one day it was the coldness of it that was the issue. These days, I drink filtered or bottled water at room temperature and have no problems at all with drinking it in quantity. Wonder if it might be worth you trying the same.I believe it’s actually better for your body anyway.

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[mlouise]

Thanks, everyone for the responses.
RAinPA – I am glad that I am not the only one with issues regarding this protocol. I would like to send you a rpivate PM to ask who you go to for Lyme. I believe that we are not far apart. I live in Garnders, PA – southern Cumberland County.

Lynne,
I am glad to hear that you were able to handle the anitboitics for Lyme and SD. Did you have lung issues as well? Alsodo you take Clindy orally? How does your stomach handle it? I am thinking of changing to the oral vs the IV because the vein issues are too much for me.

Parisa, You mentioned Zith as did Lynne. Is this an antiboitic for Lyme? You mentioned that it could be helpful for the pulmonary fibrosis. What does it do?

Maz,
I have heard to the Vit C controversy as well, but my brian cannot seem to decide which is the best way to go. I keep hoping that the C will build my immune sysem, but I recently had a blood test which realed low WBC again. I wonder what it will take to build this up?

PhilC,
I when say very ill I mean – nausea, vomiting, diarhhea, heart murmur so violent that it was visable across the room. As soon as it was out of my system, I was much better, but 3-5 lb lighter. I tried it several times with the same result. The magnesium is actually called “Calcuim lactate powder” not citrate. it is produced by Standard process.

Noteben,
I took 10 tablets and water, then 10 tablets and water later in the day. Of course I was still taking my other mino, iodoral, natu-throid, Vit D, etc. In order for me to get 10 tablets down it would take about a quart of water because of the esophagus trouble. The pills get stuck in my throat. I always take the pills with room temperature water. Thanks for your suggestions for other juices. I do sometimes use Aloe Vera Juice in my drinks to get them down.

[Lynne G.SD]

Hi Marie Louise;
I was able to stop lung issues just with Mino and Nac long before I found out I had Lyme.Zith and Metronidazole are used to break down biofilms that protect the Lyme bugs.I did bot I.V and oral Clindamycin and found no difference between them and I always take my antibiotics with food but make sure there is not much ironin then and no calcium or magnesium.By the way these 3 are used by the bugs to create biofilm so I eat them sparingly

[notabene]

Lynnie – That’s a very good suggestion – I try it starting tomorrow.

One thing that has made it a bit easier to have water with mino first thing was to have a quarter cup of black coffee, sipped slowly. Coffee has always been the first thing I consume in the morning, but after countless years of putting milk in my coffee, I’m back to drinking (a very small amount of) black coffee. Actually, I can taste the flavor much better. It’s all psychological, no doubt, but isn’t that our relationship with coffee. 😉

And I’ll continue to add juices for variety. I suppose that I could even have milk or chocolate milk with the vitamins, if far enough away from the mino. I hope you enjoy the juices too Marie Louise.

[PhilC]

Hi Louise,
@mlouise wrote:

PhilC,
I when say very ill I mean – nausea, vomiting, diarhhea, heart murmur so violent that it was visable across the room. As soon as it was out of my system, I was much better, but 3-5 lb lighter. I tried it several times with the same result. The magnesium is actually called “Calcuim lactate powder” not citrate. it is produced by Standard process.

That sounds rather severe. I don’t blame you for not wanting to repeat the experience.

@mlouise wrote:

He gave me Cataplex C and Cataplex F and magnesium citrate with C. He told me to take 10 tablets of each and 1 Tbp of citrate in one quart of water every day.

Personally, I wouldn’t take any of those products. Calcium lactate is okay as source of calcium, but I prefer to take calcium citrate and magnesium malate (one should take calcium and magnesium). One of the ingredients in Cataplex C is alfalfa, which contains a toxic amino acid called canavanine.

For more information, see:
Alfalfa: a hazardous food?
Effects of L-canavanine on T cells may explain the induction of systemic lupus erythematosus by alfalfa.

Also, Cataplex C and Cataplex F contains bovine glandular extracts. Not knowing how these extracts were produced, I would worry about the possibility of contamination with prions (“Mad Cow Disease”) and viruses.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[mlouise]

PhilC:
thanks for the reassurance. I will pursue the antibiotic protocol for Lyme instead. I am wondering what your opinion is in the ongoing debate about SD and the intake of Calcium and Magnesium. see LynnSD above and MAZ.

[PhilC]

Hi Louise,
@mlouise wrote:

I am wondering what your opinion is in the ongoing debate about SD and the intake of Calcium and Magnesium. see LynnSD above and MAZ.

As far as I know, calcium and magnesium aren’t a problem unless you are taking them within two hours of your mino.

Although you didn’t ask about it, the amount of vitamin C you are taking is not excessive and is unlikely to cause any problems. As for vitamin C being harmful for people with scleroderma, I looked into it over a year ago and found no evidence to support that belief.

I noticed that you are taking a rather large dose of vitamin D. It would be a good idea to get tested for vitamin D. However, I am not talking about the typical vitamin D test that most doctors order, which only tests for 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25-D). Instead, you want to get tested for 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25-D) and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25-D).

For more information, see:
http://mpkb.org/home/tests/dtesting

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[mlouise]

Interesting about the Vitamin D. I noticed that the Dr ordered the first test at my last blood testing but not the second one. I intend to ask him to order the other one that you mentioned. So tell me what these tests are good for and what is the significance of them and the results. I am following the dr orders, but not really clued in to why. Hence my taking the Cataplex over and over with bad results. (There is no face on the right to depict “fool” or I would put one right here!) Tell me about vitamin D. Louise

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