Blood Test Questions

[DiamondTNT]

High White and Neutrophils while on AP?

I did my third round of Clindy IVs just before Christmas.  Did my blood tests last week and now my Dr is concerned about my having high white cells count and high Neutrophils, while I'm taking antibiotics.  Had another CBC done this morning and waiting for the results.  Anyone else have high white and neutrophils while on antibiotics?

RF came in at 121 this time.  I've been hurting.

[lynnie_sydney]

Diamond – a high white blood count tends to indicate a herx. Here is some info on blood indicators from the main site. Lynnie

Differentiating between a Herxheimer, an RA flare and an allergic reaction to the drug – Laboratory tests can help differentiate between a worsening of disease (RA flare), a Herxheimer reaction to microbial toxins, and an allergic reaction to medication.

1. WBC will elevate in a Herxheimer and lower in a flare. [/*:30crdkfd]
2. A Herxheimer will also exhibit a coincidental elevation of SED rate, gamma globulin and total globulin, and a fall in serum albumin and hematocrit. Patients who exhibit this flare reaction accompanied by anemia, depression of serum albumin, elevated total globulin and gamma globulin are probably reflecting a more intense reaction pattern to anti-L substances than in hematologically mild cases. [/*:30crdkfd]
3. A marked increase in eosinophils (for instance about 30%) is an indication of an allergic reaction to the drug.

[/*]
https://www.roadback.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=studies.display&display_id=184#Anchor-The-51540

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[DiamondTNT]

Thank you, Lynnie!  My Dr mentioned her concern about Leukemia because of these test results.  Now, I feel a bit better about this.  It seems that my RA is fighting hard to keep a tight hold on me.

I think I'd like to stay on the clindy IVs forever.  Doxycycline seems to cause more herxes than mino for me, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.  The pills sometimes upset my stomach, but I can put up with that.  Herxes, or flares, that put me down hurt much more than my stomach ever could from the pills.

Sometimes I get so tired of fighting.  I'm working on making fighting my RA the only fight I am involved in, but that will take a couple more weeks of hard work to get rid of the rest of the biggest mess in my life.  Too many war fronts in my life, so I will drop my other 'war' and deal with just the RA war for a while.  I'm thinking I will have to just disappear for a while so those that want to keep me involved in my other war will leave me alone.  My life is more important than their games.   I'm 1.5 yrs into the fight against RA, but it's still difficult to accept that this has / IS happening to me.  It's hard to let go of my other 'obsession' that was so very important to me for 10+ years, but I now know I must.  Please pray for me that they will back off and leave me alone. 

[Maz]

[user=756]DiamondTNT[/user] wrote:

My Dr mentioned her concern about Leukemia because of these test results. 

I'm 1.5 yrs into the fight against RA, but it's still difficult to accept that this has / IS happening to me.

 

Hi Diamond,

My neutrophils were quite high in the beginning and have gone up and down throughout the course of treatment, especially when I change up protocols. You can read up about the function of neutrophils here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrophil_granulocyte

Neutrophils are our first line responders when we have an infection and rush to the site to engulf the infection and help to clean it up. Thing is, they are also the cells that get waylaid in RA and are what congregate in the joints to cause damage.

How high are your neutrophils, Diamond? Is your doctor going to monitor your CBC regularly to watch this number?

If this helps for a basis of comparison, after my first month of antibiotics (doxycycline for Lyme), my first set of Quest labs with my Lyme Literate doc on 11/30/06 showed:

WBC of 15.2 (normal range 3.8 to 10.8 Thous/uL)

Neutrophils, Absolute 11537 (normal range 1500 to 7800)

The next set of labs on 1/15/07 showed:

WBC 11.8

Neutrophils, Absolute 8921

 

By mid-Feb, the following month, these labs were normal, and I was through the worst of my herxing.

Diamond, if he's not already doing it, perhaps you can ask your doc to monitor these labs every month, if you can so you can watch these numbers coming down. As your doc mentioned, elevated neutrophils can also indicate other serious problems, so you want to be sure the trend is a downward one.

Hope this helps!!

Peace, Maz

 

 

[DiamondTNT]

Thank you, Maz!  Your numbers make me feel better and I can help educate my Dr.

My numbers 01/07/10:

White Count:  13.1

Absolute Neutrophils:  8869

I'll find out Monday what they were 01/15/10 and go from there.  I don't know if I'm actually herxing as my dose of either mino or doxy (changing each week until I finish the doxy I have left) is 100 mg twice a day M-W-F since Christmas, which is actually less than I was taking.  Maybe it's not enough and I'm flaring?  I think I did the best on 100 mg twice a day, every day.  December was a real mess up on the antibiotics due to being on Levaquin for 10 days.  I only had a few days of feeling decent from day 3 of the IVs to a few days after them.  I feel like I'm going downhill since then and each day is definitely worse for the past week.  Could flaring also cause the higher white and neutrophils?

I'm also wondering if I'm not detoxing enough.  The motorhome does not have a tub and I sure do miss my long baths.  I guess it's time to get very serious about the lemon and oil drinks.  My husband just mentioned getting a foot bath and that should help, too.  Right now I'm wishing we had purchased that portable hottub when it was on sale.

This place sure helps my head along with the RA!

[Maz]

[user=756]DiamondTNT[/user] wrote:

I'll find out Monday what they were 01/15/10 and go from there.  I don't know if I'm actually herxing as my dose of either mino or doxy (changing each week until I finish the doxy I have left) is 100 mg twice a day M-W-F since Christmas, which is actually less than I was taking.  Maybe it's not enough and I'm flaring?  I think I did the best on 100 mg twice a day, every day.  December was a real mess up on the antibiotics due to being on Levaquin for 10 days.  I only had a few days of feeling decent from day 3 of the IVs to a few days after them.  I feel like I'm going downhill since then and each day is definitely worse for the past week.  Could flaring also cause the higher white and neutrophils?

Hi Diamond,

So glad that posting my early WBC labs helped a bit. I know how scary this stuff can be and to know you're not alone can be such a comfort.

You've mentioned having a lot of stress lately and also been going through some AP changes in protocol with the IVs in Dec and the addition of Levaquin for a brief spurt. I understand that Levaquin can really initiate quite a bit of herxing. It's used in Lyme treatments for bartonella, but usually for longer periods. Also, people often comment here how great they feel while on the IVs after going to see Dr S in Ida Grove, only to get home to suffer a round of herxing. It can be unnerving, so hang in there.

It may take a few months for the WBCs to normalize, if it is due to the protocol changes and some herxing. So, don't be surprised if your labs, after one week, haven't changed a great deal. My bloods get checked every month and it took 3 or 4 months for my WBCs to go back into normal range. (At that time, I was on both tetracycline and biaxin in high doses). When you start to see them coming down, though, it should make you feel a bit better. Just keep on top of it and keep the blood monitoring going until they are normal again. Your doc may want to do further testing to rule out other things, too.

Also, switching back and forth between doxy and mino could also be having some effect…not bad, necessarily, as herxing is a good thing when kept tolerable, but some people are quite sensitive to even switching between brand and generic of the same type of antibiotic. The dose you're on isn't all that unusual for your stage of the game (100mg bid MWF), but if you find the pain unbearable, you might want to ask your doc about a week's washout and then just to re-start on a lower dose for a while, just while you're going through this stressful period. Hypersensitivity can build after a while and Brown suggested that a little washout period often cleared the pain-causing antigens from the system, so patient could re-start their protocol with a fresh slate. 

Stress really does a number on us, for sure, so do what you can to relax and detox, too. Please come back and let us know how you're doing when you can!

Peace, Maz

 

 

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