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I read the following in an artile:
“Your brain has tiny blood vessels (capillaries) that do not allow many larger moleculed drugs to pass through, leaving a hiding place for the disease away from the drugs that would kill them. If you take a drug that does not cross into the brain, then as soon as you stop taking the drug the bacteria will spread back to the rest of your body and you will be at square one.
Doxycycline is capable of crossing into the brain, and a dose of 500mg per day of Doxycycline is considered enough to be bactericidal. Any lesser dose is considered bacteristatic (bacteristatic means it can stop the bacteria from spreading but is ineffective at eradicating the disease).
The tetracycline family of antibiotics are used in treating many different kinds of bacterial infections. Tetracyclines are bacteristatic at low doses. Higher doses are needed to be bactericidal and to cross the blood brain barrier (BBB). “
It occurs to me that I haven't seen a lot of follow up tests to determine if the macrophage bacteria had been zero'd out. I wonder if the bacteristatic dosage might be the reason that the AP doesn't cure some people who have been on the program for a long term.
After reading a lot of the problems that many people have had with insurance, I simply had Mr Perfect do the complete PCR panel to identify the bacteria, and we tell the insurance company that we are treating this bacteria infection. Don't say a word about it being because of the RA or the AP protocol. Insurance company can't argue with a postive infection treatment. So, we will be redoing the test that came out positive on a regular bases until it's zero.
Has anyone tried this approach, eliminated the bacteria, and still had RA? Or whatever their particular auto immune disease was?
Thanks
Jo[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
I wonder if the bacteristatic dosage might be the reason that the AP doesn't cure some people who have been on the program for a long term.
Great question!!!
I have been wondering this question for a while myself. If you see the conversation I just had the other day, you know what I was thinking. http://www.rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=127&forum_id=1If you'd comparing GWI patients, their dosage was a lot stronger and the treatment time was a lot shorter, even though it may require repeated cycle if a patient has relapse.
Please let me know what you find out. JB
[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
Has anyone tried this approach, eliminated the bacteria, and still had RA? Or whatever their particular auto immune disease was?
Hi Jo,
(Yes to above question – see below).
My understanding of Dr Brown's approach is that the intention is not to eradicate bacteria bacteriocidally, but to “retrain” the immune system with lose doses of pulsed bacteriostatics to bring the hypersenstivity into a quiescient state in order to allow the immune system to deal with the pathogens itself….and as nature intended.
We live in a pathogen soup, constantly being reinfected by all kinds of pathogens, so it would probably be impossible to eradicate them totally…maybe even dangerous to try. As AF said in a previous post, in a normal, healthy state, we have both good and bad pathogens in our body living in symbiotic harmony together and it's believed that even the bad ones (when in 'healthy' numbers) do play some 'worthy' roles in our bodies. A “sterile” body, therefore, might be a very dangerous thing?
Aside from Nicholson's protocols for treating GW veterans and treatments for Lyme Disease, haven't heard of anyone here using very high doses to “blast” the mycos. There might be someone out there, but it's not something you hear much here, as RBF advocates low dose AP.
Peace, Maz
Hi JB – I've received very high doses of combo antibiotics in wider spaced pulses for Lyme Disease for a period of about 4 months. However, I didn't do very well on these longer spaced pulses (all my inflammation markers worsened), which seemed to exacerbate my hypersensitivity state….too much die-off and unbearable herxing. That said, Lyme was the trigger of my very severe RA, so I was probably in a very hypersensitive state already. How a patient does on higher dose, longer pulses would probably have to do with the degree of severity and possibly also diagnosis. I'm doing much better on lower dose, pulsed combo of mino and zith. It may take longer, but it's given me a better quality of life in the meantime (herxing more manageable) and I'm hoping it will help to retrain my immune system to do what its supposed to be doing naturally without over-reacting to pathogen toxins. Of course, we're all different and this was just my experience. 😉
Peace, Maz
[user=27]Maz[/user] wrote:
[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
Has anyone tried this approach, eliminated the bacteria, and still had RA? Or whatever their particular auto immune disease was?
Hi Jo,
(Yes to above question – see below).
You forgot to attach whatever you had in mind that showed that the bacteria had been zero'd out and the disease remained.
Aside from Nicholson's protocols for treating GW veterans and treatments for Lyme Disease, haven't heard of anyone here using very high doses to “blast” the mycos. There might be someone out there, but it's not something you hear much here, as RBF advocates low dose AP.
Peace, Maz
You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I fail to find anywhere in my post where I mentioned very high doses.
Hi JB – I've received very high doses of combo antibiotics in wider spaced pulses for Lyme Disease for a period of about 4 months. However, I didn't do very well on these longer spaced pulses (all my inflammation markers worsened), which seemed to exacerbate my hypersensitivity state….too much die-off and unbearable herxing. That said, Lyme was the trigger of my very severe RA, so I was probably in a very hypersensitive state already. How a patient does on higher dose, longer pulses would probably have to do with the degree of severity and possibly also diagnosis. I'm doing much better on lower dose, pulsed combo of mino and zith. It may take longer, but it's given me a better quality of life in the meantime (herxing more manageable) and I'm hoping it will help to retrain my immune system to do what its supposed to be doing naturally without over-reacting to pathogen toxins. Of course, we're all different and this was just my experience. 😉
Peace, Maz
If this is the yes you started your post with, then it's definately a No. This person did not zero out their bacteria on any program, but is still working on it. Jo
[user=266]JBJBJB[/user] wrote:
[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
I wonder if the bacteristatic dosage might be the reason that the AP doesn't cure some people who have been on the program for a long term.
Great question!!!
I have been wondering this question for a while myself. If you see the conversation I just had the other day, you know what I was thinking. http://www.rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=127&forum_id=1If you'd comparing GWI patients, their dosage was a lot stronger and the treatment time was a lot shorter, even though it may require repeated cycle if a patient has relapse.
Please let me know what you find out. JB
Awesome article, thank you very much. I notice that using this program still left 18 of 87 (I think it was 87) with their disease and infection in tact, and still under treatment several years later. Haven't the foggiest what that ratio would be, compared to the pulse program.
I haven't seen anyone in anything I've read, except this article now, that shows that anyone bothered to retest till their bacteria was zero'd out. Nobody seems to be tracking the infection in any way at all. Simply focusing on their symptoms.
Thanks for the great article though. Will definately discuss it with my dr.
Blessings
Jo
[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
1. You forgot to attach whatever you had in mind that showed that the bacteria had been zero'd out and the disease remained.
2. You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I fail to find anywhere in my post where I mentioned very high doses.
3. If this is the yes you started your post with, then it's definately a No. This person did not zero out their bacteria on any program, but is still working on it.
Hi Jo…thank you for your response.
I'll try to answer you more effectively this time. 😉 I numbered your comments above so I don't miss anything.
1. When I said “see below,” I was referring to my response to JB. I have been on very high doses of various different classes of antibiotics, including the tetracyclines, to treat my Lyme Disease, which was the trigger for my RA. My progress thread may help to explain further:
http://www.rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=301&forum_id=3
I used my own case as an example, because in the case of Lyme Disease, most LLMDs agree that the Lyme bacteria will never be fully eradicated, only suppressed to such a point as the immune system is able to take over. However, even when remission of symptoms occurs, many Lyme patients do relapse further down the road, because these are such pleomorphic organisms, capable of reverting to different forms (Spheroplast L-Forms, dormant cyst, bio-films, spirochete, blebs, etc) and, although it is known that longterm abx, cyst-busters, anti-fungals, anti-protozoals, etc., may help to suppress these forms, we just don't have the knowledge base at this time to fully eradicate them. This is quite similar to what Dr Brown described in terms of the life-cycles of mycoplasma…also a known co-infection of Lyme Disease. So my point being with including my tale is that, “Yes,” I have tried high dose abx therapy to treat (one of) the underlying cause(s), but “No,” I did not fair as well on high doses, physically, because I was in too much of a hypersensitive state to deal with the high degree of herxing over an extended period of time. That said, my bloodmarkers did come down, but it's arguable that the high doses of antibiotics also had some type of immunosuppressive effect.
2. Your mention of “high doses” came in the quote you used, which I inferred meant you were asking about whether higher doses may have a more bacteriocidal, rather than bacteriostatic effect.
“Doxycycline is capable of crossing into the brain, and a dose of 500mg per day of Doxycycline is considered enough to be bactericidal. Any lesser dose is considered bacteristatic (bacteristatic means it can stop the bacteria from spreading but is ineffective at eradicating the disease).
The tetracycline family of antibiotics are used in treating many different kinds of bacterial infections. Tetracyclines are bacteristatic at low doses. Higher doses are needed to be bactericidal and to cross the blood brain barrier (BBB). “You then remarked that it occured to you that:
“…the bacteristatic dosage might be the reason that the AP doesn't cure some people who have been on the program for a long term.”
You bring up a very good point here, because there may indeed be underlying pathogens that require some other type of bacteriocidal intervention, such as strep, for instance, or one of the many coinfections of Lyme Disease….amongst many other possibilities. This is covered in “The New Arthritis Breakthrough,” as Dr Brown recognized that some people's progress stalled out when co-infections like strep hadn't been addressed.
3. Yes, you're right….”this person” is indeed, “me.” My LLMD who is also a microbiologist felt strongly that I needed to address my Lyme first and that this would cause my very severe RA to remit. He was right to a degree in that I did progress quite well in the first year on high doses of various combinations of bacteriostatic and bacteriocidal antibiotics. However, due to very high levels of herxing over this period, my immune system became extremely hypersensitive…so much so that I am now very sensitive to certain facial creams and foods (a leaky gut adjunct). As such, we decided to now back down from the high doses, which were more bacteriocidal in nature, and try low-dose pulsing, which I seem to be tolerating much better now.
________
As a final note, it would be wonderful if it were possible to completely “zero out” mycoplasma or any other pathogen we may be harboring! I'm with you on this, as I'm sure we'd all love to be able to do this. However, even when our blood labs may return to within normal parameters, we're constantly being infected and reinfected with these same pathogens and many do revert to dormant forms that may be virtually impossible to detect on testing….the more recently discovered, “bio-films,” for instance. Dr Brown was probably on the money, therefore, when he said it was about “re-training” the immune system to respond more efficiently to the hypersensitivity state, which is the true cause of the rheumatoid patient's inability to fight foreign invaders very effectively, enabling them to get the upper hand.
Hope this better explains my previous post? 😀
Peace, Maz
PS…the final paragraph above is likely why those who follow Brown's AP don't bother to test and re-test for mycoplasma levels. It becomes irrelevant when the hypersensitive state is “relaxed” and patients are feeling better…a good sign the immune system is now fighting pathogens on its own.
[user=27]Maz[/user] wrote:
impossible to detect on testing….the more recently discovered, “bio-films,” for instance. 😀
Peace, Maz
I hadn't read about bio-films yet. Are they more sensitive than the PCR?
I had thought that the PCR was the most sensitive as it copied the DNA and thus made it noticeable?
Blessings
Jo
[user=465]Jo[/user] wrote:
I hadn't read about bio-films yet. Are they more sensitive than the PCR?
I had thought that the PCR was the most sensitive as it copied the DNA and thus made it noticeable?
Jo, bio-films are a relatively new finding…under a microscope, they look like smears of white stuff…like a web. I'm just learning about this particular morphed form of mycoplasma, myself, and don't know enough about it to share much of value. I will try to find the information I came across about this form…may have been Amy Proal or a Lyme video clip I watched recently. If I manage to find it again, I'll post the link for you. 😉
Peace, Maz
Jo,
Just did a quick search on mycoplasma bio-films and there are tons of studies out there. This first one gives a good explanation of how mycoplasma revert to bio-film mode to evade the immune system. The second is just a brief study summary, confirming ing how the mycoplasma bio-films enable mycoplasma persistance and survival. There are lots more, though, if you have time to do some research. I'd also be very interested in anything you find with this. 😉
Biofilms Protect Mycoplasma pulmonis Cells from Lytic Effects of Complement and Gramicidin
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1951995
Biofilm formation by mycoplasma species and its role in environmental persistence and survival
Laura McAuliffe1, Richard J. Ellis2, Katie Miles1, Roger D. Ayling1 and Robin A. J. Nicholas1
http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/913
Peace, Maz
Hi Jo and all,
Here is the Amy Proal link (c/o Michele!) giving “An Overview of the Marshall Protocol,” wherein Amy discusses the role of bio-films and their relation to L-Forms with some pretty neat slides. These are about 8 to 16 mins into the video, which is about an hour and a half in length.
Very informative and very worth spending the time to watch. Also of interest are Amy's remarks about bacteriocidals causing mycoplasma to revert to the more antibiotic resistant L-Forms, which both Brown mentions in “The Road Back,” as well as Dr. Katherine M. Poehlmann in “The Infection Connection.”
Thanks, again, Michele, for sharing this great link! 😀
Peace, Maz
[user=27]Maz[/user] wrote:
Jo,
Just did a quick search on mycoplasma bio-films and there are tons of studies out there. This first one gives a good explanation of how mycoplasma revert to bio-film mode to evade the immune system. The second is just a brief study summary, confirming ing how the mycoplasma bio-films enable mycoplasma persistance and survival. There are lots more, though, if you have time to do some research. I'd also be very interested in anything you find with this. 😉
Biofilms Protect Mycoplasma pulmonis Cells from Lytic Effects of Complement and Gramicidin
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1951995
Biofilm formation by mycoplasma species and its role in environmental persistence and survival
Laura McAuliffe1, Richard J. Ellis2, Katie Miles1, Roger D. Ayling1 and Robin A. J. Nicholas1
http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/913
Peace, Maz
Ok, I understand now. Biofilms are not something that will reveal the presence of the bacteria thorugh testing. I misunderstood.
This is what I've learned from the research available on the Internet.
Some mycoplasma can create biofilms, some create capsules, and others can not do either. The studies are still on animal forms, and so we don't know about the human forms yet. The particular mycoplasma I'm interested in, as it's the one Mr Perfect has
Mycoplasma pneumoniae IgG Pos … has two similar varieties in animals. The one in rats does creat biofilms, the one in cows does not. However, the one in cows creates capsules.
The tetracycline variety used in these tests prevented all the mycoplamsa it was tested on from creating either a biofilm, or a capsule. And thus there was no immunity or protection from the antibiotic.
The studies you quoted used Component and Gramicidin. Component is one of the bodies immune system responses. Gramicidin is a topical antibiotic, one of three used in Neosporin. It can not be taken internally. Both if these kill bacteria by disrupting the ion balance and moving water into the bacteria cell until it bursts and dies.
The tetrcycline antibiotics kill the bacteria during it's replication phase, by disrupting the RNA duplication.
I forgot to count them from the beginning, but once I started, there were 6 other antibiotics tested in various other studies. None of them prevented the creation of biofilms and capsules the way the tetracycline does, and so all of the mycoplasma were able to create some form of immunity to the antibiotic. In some of the tests, all it took was a significantly higher dose of the antibiotic to overcome the immunity, and in others there was total immunity, no matter the dose. In some cases, the antibiotic didn't have to be increased as the immunity was not total, it simply has to be used much longer.
In one study of acute pneunomia in children it stated:
Macrolides are useful for mycoplasma and chlamydia infection but also reduce Pseudomonas virulence, biofilm and inflammation
And just for fun, and to show how unjust the medical community can be.
I found a protocol to treat pet rats with chronic infections, using the pulsed AP, pretty much as described, but without the acute treatment every 6 months.
Blessings
Jo
Found another interesting article.
http://www.nature.com/leu/journal/v16/n2/full/2402364a.html
How to eliminate mycoplasmas from leukemia research cell lines.
Again it states that the tetracyclines are bacteriastic, but it also reaffirms that they will stop the resistence of the mycoplasma to the bacteriocidal antibiotic of choice.
The recommended treatment is Baytril w/ bm-cyclin .. all animal antibiotics … sigh
However, I think Ciproflaxacin (aka: cipro, ciprobay, ciproxin, ciproxine, ciflox) is the human equivalent of baytril. A 2nd generation broad sprectrum fluoroquinalone.
The bm-cyclin is a combination of minocycline and tiamulin. I can not find a human equivalent to tiamulin. But we're all familiar with minocycline.
I'm thinking of adding the ciprofloxacin to the list of accute antibiotics to try on one of the acute treatments each 6 months.
Has anyone every tried ciprofloxacin?
Blessings
Jo
1: J Rheumatol. 2003 Oct;30(10):2112-22.
Should tetracycline treatment be used more extensively for rheumatoid arthritis? Metaanalysis demonstrates clinical benefit with reduction in disease activity.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14528503?dopt=AbstractPlus
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