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Found a new article basically stating a lot of information we already knew about the gut and diet in the mechanism of autoimmune diseases, in this instance they are referring to Lupus, but I am sure it extends to the rest of them also.
One particular point is the CAUTION of the arbitrary use of probiotics. I have pointed out in previous posts about manufacturers just throwing together a bunch of strains without really knowing what they can do, I call it the “shotgun” approach. They don’t care about your health, just profits.
There are some strains that have been shown to downregulate inflammation, but also some that upregulate, supplement manufacturers just toss them both in the same formula, at best they negate each other, at worst, they cause an increase of disease activity. I believe people should use only single strands of bacteria (that is what I do), each which has shown its efficacy in favor of down regulating inflammation and T cell activity (CD4:CD8 ratio). I have posted a few in the past.
Do a lot of research on the brand you are using and run a breakdown of each strain and check it in Pubmed to see what effect, if any, it has on our gut ecosystem, otherwise you may be working against yourself even taking antibiotics.
Probiotics has become the latest craze, everyone takes them as the “cure all”, like Vitamin D ( which was recently shown to be a waste of money), sales are continuing to increase, but autoimmune diseases are on the rise also, maybe there is a connection. Good luck in your research.
John
@mattnapa wrote:
Could you be more specific about D-3 being a waste of money please?
Read this, then decide. Like some others on this forum, Vitamin D actually made our problems worse. So far no trial ever done has shown that vitamin D actually helped. Lot of hype out there from the supplement companies to get your cash. Too bad, I fell for it once too.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/01/13/the-top-six-vitamins-you-shouldnt-take/
Well everyone has to see for themselves what works, but there are of course indications that herx reactions can make things worse before they get better. I read your link and the authors list Vitamins C,A,E,and B6 as some of the worst you can take. Personally I think that speaks for itself, but I will attempt not to generalize too much. Some of us have seen a tendency with the quackbuster type articles, and the studies they rely upon to base their conclusions upon, to often be based on protocols with very low or non therapeutic doses of the vitamin in question. And sure enough that seems to be the case here where the 23 studies examined all had vitamin D doses at or below 800 IU per day, when therapeutic doses are generally considered to be from 10,000 to 25,000 IU per day
@mattnapa wrote:
Well everyone has to see for themselves what works, but there are of course indications that herx reactions can make things worse before they get better. I read your link and the authors list Vitamins C,A,E,and B6 as some of the worst you can take. Personally I think that speaks for itself, but I will attempt not to generalize too much. Some of us have seen a tendency with the quackbuster type articles, and the studies they rely upon to base their conclusions upon, to often be based on protocols with very low or non therapeutic doses of the vitamin in question. And sure enough that seems to be the case here where the 23 studies examined all had vitamin D doses at or below 800 IU per day, when therapeutic doses are generally considered to be from 10,000 to 25,000 IU per day
They stated that over 450 studies were analyzed to come to this conclusion, while some may have had only 800 iu daily, some went as high as 10000 iu dayily for 9 months, still made no difference. Maybe you are the exception if it does help you. I know when I dropped it myself, some of my inflammation subsided. Eventually doing other things I managed to get it in remission, and that was without supplementing any Vitamin D. Good luck.
John
Hi The problem with probiotic count is the mfg gives the count at the time of packaging –any probiotic that needs refrigeration has to have massive loss in count —these probiotics can be out in the sun –on loading docks –in warehouses etc all the time losing potency –one of the main reasons for my taking pb8 is the mfg claim that no refrigeration is needed –I have proven this claim –we take long motor trips and they can be unrefrigerated for as long as 40 days –never a problem –I am taking them now for 15 years and also take 200 mg daily of minocin –never any fungal issues or gut issues —
richieI looked at both on the links from the Autier study and saw no information that showed studies with 10,000IU daily. It might be true, but please tell me where that is stated. A sufficient amount of calcium is also necessary for Vitamin D-3 to be effective. So again are we assured that is the case of what seemingly are admitted as mostly very old studies on Vitamin D
Here is a response to Reid et al. 10 of 23 studies at 800 IU. Others showed Vitamin D efficacy regardless of low dose
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2814%2960641-3/fulltext
In general these meta studies are extremely problematic and susceptible to manipulation. Witness the recent meta study analysis by Stanford which claimed conventionally grown produce with pesticides was just as healthy as organically grown produce. Reports I have seen regarding Autier study claim that many of the studies did not even specify whether it was Vitamin D3 or D2 in the study. It would be one thing to suggest this as anomaly but there is a longstanding tendency in these meta analysis to cherry pick studies that suit an anti supplement agenda
Unless I am missing a major point —It seems that in this discussion a major fact is being overlooked –for folks here the primary purpose of a probiotic is replacement –the taking of a probiotic is not meant to be be therapeutic rather the primary purpose is merely the replacement of the beneficial gut bacteria that is killed of by the taking of antibiotic
DR Trentham when he was practicing was a strong advocate of Bill Clintons motto KISS –Keep it Simple —lets not overcomplicate what is an easy basic issue –if a probiotic agrees with you and you feel no problems and dont get fungal issues -thats it !!!! Its good enough whatever the brand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So here is the best link I could find in regard to the Autier meta analysis. Complicated but fairly succinct. Probably too bad I meet many of you for the first time in some what of an argumentative format. It is not my intention to come here to be argumentative. If it had been stated that the jury is still out on Vitamin D great. But proven to be useless is a little past my ability to remain silent
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/a-look-at-the-recent-lancet-review-study/
@richie wrote:
Unless I am missing a major point —It seems that in this discussion a major fact is being overlooked –for folks here the primary purpose of a probiotic is replacement –the taking of a probiotic is not meant to be be therapeutic rather the primary purpose is merely the replacement of the beneficial gut bacteria that is killed of by the taking of antibiotic
DR Trentham when he was practicing was a strong advocate of Bill Clintons motto KISS –Keep it Simple —lets not overcomplicate what is an easy basic issue –if a probiotic agrees with you and you feel no problems and dont get fungal issues -thats it !!!! Its good enough whatever the brand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Richie, I agree with you ! Long before my RA diagnosis and AP, I sometimes had problems with yeast infections . When I started AP I also began to take probiotics and have not had a yeast problem since ! Wish I had taken them years ago as I believe they really help me, and now insist my children take them too.
Hi Johny;
Have you read the CIR( http://www.chronicillnessrecovery.org ) site to get an explanation of why Vit D can be so bad for us,most facinating.Over the years I have tried supplementing with high doses of D and more lately with none at all.I only got better after removing all sources of that vitamin which is not a vitamin but a secosteroid.No wonder why I was feeling better on high D but not getting any betterThat is interesting and you guys are the experts on D-3 as it relates to RA. Though I did not understand that to be the original context of Johnny Max’s statement
@mattnapa wrote:
That is interesting and you guys are the experts on D-3 as it relates to RA. Though I did not understand that to be the original context of Johnny Max’s statement
It does not take much to be an ” expert” of Vitamin D3, just some basic facts, and the ability to twist these facts to fit YOUR agenda. Apparently that is what the supplement manufacturers, Vitamin D Council and others with vested interests have been doing for years in order to pull the wool over the eyes of an unsuspecting public, and doing it well, may I add. But the gravy train is over. Supplement after supplement is touted as the current “cure all” until the truth catches up. The panacea of Vitamin D has seen it’s day,time to move on to the next “miracle” supplement.
For years, the supplement industry has used medical con artists ( similar to the old time Snake Oil salesmen selling Dr Oz’s Miracle Elixir) to tell half truths of the importance of Vitamin D supplementation, to the point where practically everyone now is considered Vitamin D deficient and is in a mad rush to up their levels so they will be safe from all the ills that follow those that fail to do so. We all want to live to 100 with vibrant health, and Vitamin D along with a few other “pretenders to the throne” of supplementation will get you there according to these “experts for sale”
Well my friend, like they say, it is over, the “fat lady” has sung. For your perusal I have submitted a series of articles and a trial not included in the articles, all related to its affect, or should I say “lack of” in the treatment of autoimmune disease. The articles review a great many peer reviewed clinical trials which are stated should you wish to pursue them and contact the researcher and point out to them, what they did wrong.
Sorry I did not respond as soon as you would have liked, but with the nice weather and not being ill at the moment, I took the time to live my life. BTW, what autoimmune disease are you battling that brings you to our forum, or just slumming?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22925537
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3098920/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/art.30341/pdf
In return I ask you produce one valid peer reviewed study, any dose Vitamin D ( not some experimental analog), that has shown a meaningful effect on disease markers on any of the common autoimmune diseases, RA, Sjogren’s, Lupus, PSA etc. Good luck finding one, I have looked for over a year so far.
John
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