[PhilC]

@aoshi_xken wrote:

Just wondering: Dr Brown did say antibiotics were treating the underlying cause of RA. Now it seems as though Minocycline was just an other medication able to supress the immune system and have an anti-inflammatory effect, therefore “controling” a disease that still has an unknown cause? Did I miss something that made Dr Brown’s initial point on RA’s cause dismissed?

You did not miss anything. Minocycline does treat the underlying cause of RA. However, many doctors don’t believe that chronic infection is the underlying cause of RA, so they point to minocycline’s weak anti-inflammatory effect to explain why it works.

Phil

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein

[lynnie_sydney]

well put Phil. The mild anti-inflammatory and immune-modulatory effects of minocycline is a position that most rheumatologists are comfortable with because conventional medicine still comes from the position that rheumatoid arthritis is an idiopathic disease – i.e. with no known cause – in which the immune system begins to attack itself for no known reason. Those who subscribe to Dr Brown’s position believe that there is a cause and that this cause is of infectious origin.

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[laurawm]

Hi Wib411,

Thank you for the article link – I read it and it is interesting – I recently read an article talking about how human breast milk has over 700 different bacterias within that largely match the flora of the mother – so interesting how our immune systems are built up (and down!) from infancy forward.

As for antibiotics being immunosuppressive, my understanding is that they are immunosuppressive only so far as probiotics are not effectively applied and used. Good intestinal flora is a large part of a healthy immune system that is often out of balance in rheumatic patients due to overwhelming/virulent/longstanding infection, so if antibiotics are taken in heavy doses (not as low pulsed dosages often recommended by ABX doctors) without probiotics taken, I believe this would be immunosuppressive in a negative way. The anti-inflammatory/immune modulating factors of the tetracyclines do not inhibit the immune system from clearing out bacteria in the way that many other DMARDs work – they help an already overwhelmed immune system clear out infection. With probiotics, for people who are very sick with rheumatic illnesses, antibiotics in conjunction with probiotics work to help, not suppress or harm the immune system (the immune system is already in a negative state for the rheumatic patient – it’s crying out for a SOS!), – from my understanding.

I do not want to be on antibiotics for the rest of my life, and maybe I can get to a place where I can just be on herbals/probiotics/supplements, but that time is not now. I can see how a fecal transplant could cure someone whose primary infectious/autoimmune issue is in their gut, but when you have rheumatic patients with Cpn, Lyme, and mycoplasma living inside the joints and in the brain, it is difficult for the immune system on it’s own, even with all the right bacteria and no leaky gut, be able to access and penetrate into tissue well enough to effectively clear out the instigating infectious agents without conventional antibiotics – plus the by this time the body has already developed an autoimmune response that greatly complicates the immune system’s ability to self-regulate. If you get heavy into the science of how the body works and study the Gerson diet, it does seem that by changing the actual chemistry within one’s body, it is possible to force the body into a state of mandatory detox – but this route is not recommended to be done at home on one’s own (there are centers in Hungary and Mexico I believe where cancer patients can go for intensive diet/detox treatment) and the premise is not about restoring good flora – it is about changing cell ph and salt and potassium balances within the blood in order to literally force toxins/bacteria out of one’s body – and can be quite deadly without intensive (as in very regular coffee enemas) detox. These are just my opinions and understanding at this point.

[Anonymous]

@laurawm wrote:

I do not want to be on antibiotics for the rest of my life, and maybe I can get to a place where I can just be on herbals/probiotics/supplements, but that time is not now.

Thats is EXACTLY what we hope as well. Who knows… maybe it’s possible and realistic in a few years.

That makes think: I have a chinese friend who still have family in China. Traditional Chinese Medecine somehow promotes such a natural-long-term self regulatory way. His family is treated for other health conditions with methods that litteraly blow my mind.

I’m not sure, but I believe Mercola has come up with a drug-free treatment as well…

[lynnie_sydney]

I do not want to be on antibiotics for the rest of my life, and maybe I can get to a place where I can just be on herbals/probiotics/supplements, but that time is not now.

Laura – I can understand the sentiment. But many who’ve had success with AP do stay on a maintenance dose. Far easier to prevent a recurrence than to deal with one after the fact – as symptoms seem to be much harder to get under control a second or subsequent time. For myself, I have been on abx protocols (mono therapy minocycline for 4 years, then various low dose combination protocols, regularly tweaked), for the last 10 years. In that time, I have had no gut or other issues associated with taking abx. I am (now) more than happy to contemplate a life-long commitment to this level of abx. I have a Mother who went the traditional methotrexate and prednisone route and has suffered great consequences from this.

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[richie]

Arent herbals a form of medicine ???? I really cant see a difference between herbals and prescription medicines except for herbals to be far less regulated —
richie

[laurawm]

Hi Lynnie, Richie, Aoshi,

My own doctor who has had neurological Lyme did try to go antibiotic free at one point using only a rife machine and supplements and ultimately went back on ABX because these other means were not effective enough. Her general stance is that even if you’ve reached what would be considered complete remission, one would be wise to do at least one week of ABX each month in addition to herbals. Also, one of her patients who successfully went into remission after 18 months of clindy IVs is now back for treatment because she went off ABX completely for many years. She would take doxy only when she began to flare, but this last flare she did not treat right away with ABX and now it has grown to a lengthy flare where she is suffering greatly and having to start back on multiple ABX and other medications to try to go back into remission and it is not proving to be a short road back to her previously achieved remission. I believe one of the primary difficulties with an RA patient is that even if the infection has been minimized such that the autoimmune response is not active, it does not mean that that allergic swelling response will not come back if infection once again grows. I am on antibiotic treatment because I believe it to be by far the safest and long term most effective treatment available and the only treatment that addresses the root cause of the disease. I am interested and believe in many herbals/supplements (and yes, Richie, I believe they are just unregulated “drugs” – for example, colostrum, SAM, and melatonin are prescription/controlled in many countries, just not in the US), but am not/do not advocate for them as a substitute for ABX which has been proven effective. As Lynnie wrote, she has been on ABX in good health for many years as are many others who employ ABX treatment. Taken with probiotics, ABX have been healing and regulatory in the immune function of many RA patients both short and long term.

[Author]

Posts