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i would say the negative side effects would stem from people who took abx therapy too often as in everyday. low dose minocycline dosed monday wednesday friday is a fraction of what teenagers take daily for acne. this decision lies upon you ultimately but I will say that low dose minocycline has given me my life back. i have no negative symptoms a year and a half into therapy. my gut is fine unless i eat lots of bad food but thats to be expected. those taking minocycline need to see that it is a whole body therapy. you cant just swallow a pill and expect miracles. food sensitivities plays a major roll. i beleive that your body becomes sensitive to everything so u need to tone down everything and that includes bacteria along with offending foods. anywho those are my thoughts to the last two comments. some say its food intolerance, others say bacterial. I say both.
Sarahjain: Yes, It is likely that any number of medications/old time remedies/foods will alter one’s inner works.
Some sufferers with IBS, Crohn’s Diease are trying a different approach. Mayo Cinic, other clinics and many self administrators are re-establishing their internal flora via fecal transplant. Lots of Internet chatter on this. If you GOOGLE:Germs Are Us.
Originally in the Oct 22 Issue of the New Yorker.
That article, by a doctor, gives a good history and some success reports. It is possible that some powerful antibiotics have destroyed bacteria/virus/fungus/germs that may have kept us free of RA type afflictions.
Perhaps related are the phenomena discussed in the ” whipworm” posts in the General Forum.I Doubt the mino, or other tetracycline antibiotics are at fault. They are described as reasonably benign, but no one knows for sure. Good topic. I hope there is some definitive data on the effect of the tetracycline family on us. Probiotics are limited. Your 400 bacteria probably has little overlap with my 400. The clinical fecal transplant providers tend to use a rigorously defined healthy relative as the donor. Some of the results are astounding….in the high 80% cure rate in less than a week for the IBS studies.
The entire point is missed –the reason for probiotics is to replace “friendly bacteria” in the gut
richieRichie is so right.To add to this post,most people who have our diseases already have leaky gut that alowed pathogens to get into our blood stream via the gut.This is a major part of chronic disease.Healing the gut from the beginning and staying on antbiotics and taking probiotics is the best way to get a handle on our diseases.Anyone taking chemo drugs for SD or the heavy hitting meds used in RA will definately have the same problem but doctors never mention that possibility.
Let us take a cautious look at the 80% of our bodies cells that are semi independent, non definitively human. No biologist, manufacturer or Doctor knows what one’s internal flora/fauna/etc is made up of to be a healthy person. Commercial probiotics are typically from a few to perhaps 20+ some supposedly friendly bacteria…no mention of friendly virus, fungi or other symbiotic entities.
Some probiots are potentially harmful, given the individual’s at-the-time internal ecology. There are a few MD’s who are on the point and understand what were thought to be helpful antibiotics have created disasters for some people. Big problem…there are very few data defining what helps, what harms, or what mix of which organisms is temporally beneficial. Yes, TB is not good, nor smallpox, but some of the usual suspects have gotten new definitions.For example, Helix Pylori which contributes to severe stomach ulcers in humans over middle age, seems to perform some benificial probiotic role in the young. That’s one of the findings described in the Germs Are Us article.
That same essay raises a few concerns about probiotics, but the doctor does not recommend stopping them. He is pointing out our collective ignorance. The successes of the fecal transplants, both clinical, and DIY, may be due to healthy donors who are relatives, I.e., those who have similar internal ecologies. The procedure might be problematic if donors were healthy but culturally heterogenous.
Back to what I thought was the implied question about antibiotics, and Dr Brown’ s theory for RA and related afflictions. Could he have had the successes he did were the Tetracycline drug family not helpful? Highly doubtful. There also does not seem to be much in negative side effects from his protocols. And, I suspect the micro plasmid function and pathology has more to be discovered.
I think these posts raise really good questions that science and medicine in particular needs to address and catch up to our needs.
😉 Pulsed,( every other day, 3x’s a week, even three on three off) antibiotics such as doxy and mino are being used to preserve the gut, versus daily use. Not my idea, Dr. B. well known lyme doctor, now researcher. As far as scientific literature, I have read tons for three years and value this board more than alot of studies i have read. Look closely for financial interests… How about the Topic: How does Remicade and other anti-tumor necrosis factor medications affect the gut? jims 😛
I believe that leaky gut in autoimmune cases is caused primarily and initially by the pathogenic bacteria(s) that we discuss as the instigators of disease on this forum. Over time the good flora in our gut can no longer effectively manage the pathogens and leaky gut develops as a result of the irritation in the gut from the bad bacteria (and food sensitivities and autoimmune disease in those with this genetic predisposition). If our gut flora was in good shape to begin with, and all we needed to be well was to heal our leaky gut, then probiotics and selective food sensitivity elimination is all that would be necessary to heal. But this is not the case. Ideally we would know exactly each and every pathogenic bacteria in our systems and would have drugs that would target just these bugs, but instead we have powerful drugs that wipe out good and bad. We take out the bad, replace the good on a continual basis with probiotics, and take as many herbal, more gentle antibiotics as possible to supplement the treatment regimen (I like colostrum and monolaurin, cat’s claw, and samento – major herxing with all of these, preservation of good bacteria with at least the first two).
I believe my leaky gut started many years before diagnosis with RA. I had ultra sounds done of my gut because of pain and was referred to specialists to check for IBS or crohn’s (never went, should have), then I got an umbilical hernia plus add a terrible chronic cough, fatique, and painful knees – I had RA for probably well over a decade and did not know it. I was in my twenties, excercising everyday and ate a very healthy diet – never being overweight. Food sensitivities did not cause this leaky gut, nor did they cause my incessant coughing. The food problems started once the leaky gut and autoimmune reactions became too much for my immune system to manage. This is what I believe, anyhow.
I believe herbals, diet management, fasting, so on and so forth can be effective in the beginning of disease and for management once disease is under control possibly for some, but not for severe disease. I went on only herbals in the spring for the very reason of worrying about leaky gut, and it absolutely did not work. It is one of the worst mistakes of my life and I am paying for it now trying to get better from a much much worse starting point.
Best to everyone – this is an important topic in the viability of the ABX treatment protocol within the alternative/integrative health market.
Laura
Personal experience is far superior than “studying literature ” My personal experience is thus –I take 200 mg daily of minocin for over 13 years now –I also take 10 capsules of PB8 a popular probiotic daily —no problems with gut issues –eat anything I want and absolutely no restrictions on me eating and believe me I eat and will try almost anything that doesnt move on my plate!!!!!–Experience is the best teacher OH yes –A nasty case of diffuse scleroderma has been in remission for over 7 years now !!!!
richieThat being said, some people are helped very much by antibiotic treatments, such as what your doctor is proposing.
My concern is that antibiotic treatments are yet another way of treating only the symptoms and not correcting the underlying causes. Yes, many people get relief from treating the symptoms, but seldom does anyone completely heal a condition that way.It appears that this person does not understand how antibiotic therapy helps people with rheumatoid diseases. Using antibiotic therapy is not a case of “treating the symptoms.” I do not believe that this person is reliable source of information on this particular topic.
Phil
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Albert Einstein@Sarahjain wrote:
Relief from symptoms is great but my concern is that your treatment go further than that.
In my mind, the goal is for there to be ultimately no symptoms that need suppressing. My fear is that antibiotic treatments for RA are only half-measures that will keep you dependent on long-term, ongoing antibiotic treatments, perhaps for the rest of your life.In the book, Why Arthritis, written by Harold Clark who is highly regarded on the Road Back, I read that tetracyclines are immunosuppressant (p87 and p112). It listed that they also are anticollagenase, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, antibacterial and antimcroplasma therapy. They obviously have a lot going for them. However, the person that made the comment above may have a valid concern depending on how immunosuppressant these tetracyclines actually are.
Just a thought,
TrudiLyme/RA; AP 4/2008 off and on to 3/2010; past use of quinolones may be the cause of my current problems, (including wheelchair use); all supplements (which can aggravate the condition) were discontinued on 10/14/2012. Am now treating for the homozygous MTHFR 1298 mutation. Off of all pain meds since Spring '14 (was on them for years--doctor is amazed--me too). Back on pain med 1/2017. Reinfected? Frozen shoulder?
Hi–Its a lofty goal to have symptoms no longer needing needing suppression but is it realistic –there are no cures –and antibiotic offers an approach that has less side effects than biologics –until there is a cure taking antibiotic on a long range basis is the best alternative-
richieLaura…..
Here is Michael Specter’s exposition on the human biome and “good germ” question. When I suggested Sach’s book in December, I could not get a link to this to work, but here it is, now:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_specter#ixzz2HmqnIeZ6′
As he points out, Helix pylori, causing stomach ulcers in some adults, appears to have a beneficial effect in kids, reducing rates of Asthma.
It may be that an internal biome must be receptive for APto work well. It obviously does for some people, and for some it is slower
@richie wrote:
Hi–Its a lofty goal to have symptoms no longer needing needing suppression but is it realistic –there are no cures –and antibiotic offers an approach that has less side effects than biologics –until there is a cure taking antibiotic on a long range basis is the best alternative-
richieJust wondering: Dr Brown did say antibiotics were treating the underlying cause of RA. Now it seems as though Minocycline was just an other medication able to supress the immune system and have an anti-inflammatory effect, therefore “controling” a disease that still has an unknown cause? Did I miss something that made Dr Brown’s initial point on RA’s cause dismissed?
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