Why herxing after 30 days on an abx?

[jbower79]

Hi,
I wanted to check in to see if anyone has taken an abx for 3-4 weeks and tolerated it without problems and then all of the sudden start herxing on it. Abby has been on azythromycin from March 12 to April 14th without any trouble. Then she got sick like she had strep again (strep test was negative) but we went ahead and added Augmentin to the zithromax in case she had strep (she has had it 8 times in a year). After 3 days on both abx, she started herxing with the bad symptom being dizziness and brain fog and complete bone crushing fatigue, so I stopped all abx for 4 days. Just yesterday I re-started the zithromax and she got up this a.m. feeling awful again. She was very tired with stomachache and all over sick feeling.

Dr. S agrees with her taking zithromax but wants us to keep her on that and re-start Mino at 50mg 3xweek. I have not started her on the mino yet because I am trying to keep her functional until after she graduates May 26th.

Any ideas, input, suggestions, please let me know. I am just really confused why she would tolerate Augmentin for over 30 days in January, then zithromax for over 30 days (she originally did not take the 2 together) and now cannot tolerate either without herxing.

Thanks in advance for any input!
Joyce

[Maz]

@jbower79 wrote:

Any ideas, input, suggestions, please let me know. I am just really confused why she would tolerate Augmentin for over 30 days in January, then zithromax for over 30 days (she originally did not take the 2 together) and now cannot tolerate either without herxing.

Hi Joyce,

Some really strange herx patterns can occur with the Lyme mix of infections. Lyme, itself, commonly causes herxes and flare-ups in monthly cycles for many Lymies and it’s thought that this may be due to the toxins released in the natural course of the life-cycle of the organism…that is, Lyme is just more susceptible to abx at certain times during its life-cycle.

Although augmentin is sometimes used alongside azithromycin and may have some synergism, apparently this hasn’t been studied in any great depth and it’s also possible to experience minor antagonism, too. Could be it’s different in a case-by-case sense.

http://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=300-0,189-84

My best fellow patient guess is that Amber’s lyme was about to go into a monthly flare and the timing of adding the augmentin may have tripped off some extra herxing. Either way – herx or flare, it’s those blasted toxins that create all the nasty symptoms and the only way around it is to get jiggy with the detoxing.

The Lyme/strep combo is a very tricky one, too. I was reading in The Puzzling Problem of Arthritis that strep has this innate ability to somehow protect other organisms. So, it could be that by hitting the strep that the other organisms in Amber’s pathogen load have now been exposed. As she seems so predisposed to strep, I’m guessing this could be a bit of a challenge for a while until her immune system gets a little stronger and is able to tackle things a bit better on its own.

I hope things calm down for her for her big day – her graduation. What a milestone! Poor kid has had it rougher than most at this tender age, but you must be so proud she is nearly there!

[crowchez]

@Maz wrote:

Either way – herx or flare, it’s those blasted toxins that create all the nasty symptoms and the only way around it is to get jiggy with the detoxing.

😆 I almost snorted reading this at the office! Wise words, wise words… 😀

[kali]

Hi Joyce,
I don’t have Lyme but RA and I did not begin a really full blown herx until after about 10 weeks on AP. I had a mild herx in the beginning but was relieved of most of my pain very quickly. By the end of summer, I started to feel more pain and then got a terrible cold. After the cold passed I really felt bad with pain and flu sx. I thought the abx had stopped working. It took me several weeks to figure out I was herxing!!…after all that time feeling fine. I have mulled it over a million times:
-Did my immune system finally start working?
-Was it taking care of ‘peripheral’ infections and then unearthed the biggie?
-Was my immune system initially being ‘unburdened’ by abx and I felt better until I flared after the cold?

Whatever happened – things were not the same after that. I became much more sensitive to the abx and FINALLY realized that I needed to cut my dosage back. I know this is not possible when dealing with Lyme.
So – as Maz has stated, the body works in mysterious ways and can protect itself in an uncanny fashion. It is also very good at prioritizing things and treating things in a particular order to achieve balance and healing. Looking back, I think my cold was actually the beginning of the herx.

I do hope that it all works out for you and your daughter. Congratulations on her big day!
Kali

[Maz]

@kali wrote:

Looking back, I think my cold was actually the beginning of the herx.

Kali, you bring up a really good point. Isn’t it strange how one can only tell the difference between a herx or flare until after the event? At least this is how it has always seemed to occur for me. I never knew, and still have trouble deciphering (when I change up my protocol or cycling thru a Lyme herx), if what I’m experiencing is flaring or herxing until all is said and done.

It is a confusing old business, but understanding the mechanism can really help, I found, as really a herx or flare is not really any different in terms of symptoms and how rough you feel. It’s just that the cause is different, a flare being the result of random releases of bacterial endotoxins and a herx being the result of controlled die-off from abx. There are some variances in symptoms between the two, maybe due to the body having to break down meds and detox those as well as toxins from bugs, or simply because bugs that were securely hiding in their cages are being rattled out by the abx, so some new symptoms may arise, too, with herxing.

In any case, I could only ever tell it was a herx after the fact when I looked back and realized I was moving ahead in progress.

[kali]

Kali, you bring up a really good point. Isn’t it strange how one can only tell the difference between a herx or flare until after the event? At least this is how it has always seemed to occur for me. I never knew, and still have trouble deciphering (when I change up my protocol or cycling thru a Lyme herx), if what I’m experiencing is flaring or herxing until all is said and done

I have found this to be so true Maz. However, I have changed or added to my protocol with other abx as well as natural anti-microbials several times and can now almost predict that it will bring on a herx! If I change the least little thing – which was recently just the time of day I was taking my abx – I will bring on a herx. MY flares are usually when I have changed nothing and out of the blue I get pain. This is very rare now – so it sorta freaks me out when it happens. Regardless, there is certainly a learning curve to go through. I often feel like a human guinea pig. But at least I am also the mad scientist! 😈

Take good care Maz,
Kali

[jbower79]

Thanks all for the input. Being the guinea pig and the mad scientist is likely a plus. It is so difficult to try and help treat a child or young adult because they are the ones experiencing the symptoms but cannot articulate that well what they are feeling and don’t know exactly all the supplements and abx that they are taking.

I guess when Abby goes to college (if she goes with this terrible illness) she will have to take full ownership and I will have to let go. Will be a learning experience for both of us!

Thanks again Maz and Kali for the suggestions/info.

Joyce

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