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Has anyone ever tried the Autoimmune Paleo Diet for an extended period of time? I did a search and I didn’t see any results.
For good reason –why would someone want to punish themselves with such a restrictive diet –there is such a thing as “quality of life “–this diet sure doesnt address that —
One more point –This paleo diet is based on a diet followed by ancient man –the life expectancy was about 35–40 years old –why in heavens name would I want to follow this lifestyle –I listen to nothing that emanates from a country where the life expectancy is low –why would I do that —
Vegan is probably more restrictive, but you can eat grain. Paleo diet is similar what some of us on this forum are on, but we eat grain.
I read a very interesting book “No grain no pain” by Dr Peter Osborne. He has treated himself and many patients. Still I think what they add to our products today /and water/ is the worst and most toxic.RA tried everything: Methotraxate, Arava, Humira. Pneumonia three times. Anemia. Very low iron. Hypothyroidism
AP from April 2014 till August 2015. No luck.
Current medications: Natural thyroid, Mobic, supplements,
vitamins and minerals.
MTHFR heterozygousI’ve tried every diet imaginable to help my RA…literally every eating plan you could think of…I found zero benefit to any of them. I had also asked the doctor (who has since retired) …the one that prescribed the mino for me. He was a big name in the mino community what diet I should follow and he said “just a nutritious diet, nothing outlandish.” What got me better (and I can only speak for me) is minocycline…period…fullstop.
I also want to say that I find Richie’s response both funny and wise. I live for your posts, Richie, I really do.
Minocycline 100mg every other day with food...lots of food: Zydus brand. Celecoxib 200mg twice per day: Greenstone brand.
I received exactly the same advice from my doctor about diet as you whaleharbor –my advice came from Trentham
Unsurprisingly, we saw the same doctor Richie!
Minocycline 100mg every other day with food...lots of food: Zydus brand. Celecoxib 200mg twice per day: Greenstone brand.
Prix, i think this is a very reasonable question for some folks with rheumatic disease. Below is a blog article that describes why and how gluten sensitivity (not allergy as in celiac disease), for example, arises. There are tight junctions in the mucosal lining of the gut and when folks eat undigestible forms of gluten or take pain meds, this lining is compromised, allowing both foreign food proteins and microbes through micrperforations in the gut lining. This accelerates the autoimmune process as the quoted GI doc in MA describes and some people do notice flaring consuming certain foods offenders. Sugars also feed fungal forms in the gut that grow tubule-like roots into the gut lining, making matters worse. People who never had issues with gluten, dairy or sugars prior to their rheumatic disease may develop intolerances and become more prone with NSAID use, so there are very definitely instances where some folk do better by working on their diet, removing all unnaturally processed, nutrient-deficient “foods,” and eating nutrient-dense, fresh, organic foods (free of chemicals that also compromise gut function). The goal is to heal the gut lining while assisting the body to absorb densely-packed nutrients to strengthen immune function. Food really is medicine in this context.
Gluten, Inflammation and Leaky Gut in Rheumatic Diseases
It’s easy to forget that gut microbes and enzymes help us break down foods and that overgrowths or depletions of microbes (e.g., SIBO in SD) in part due to deficient diets or toxic substances that are consumed (e.g., palm oil or fructose) will exacerbate theses conditions.
Hi Richie and Whaleharbor,
I was thinking about (now retired) Dr.Trentham – esteemed rheumatologist at Beth Israel in Boston, and co-author of both the MIRA and Mino in Early Diffuse SD trials – after you both mentioned him in the dietary context. He certainly was an interesting guy, because he was ridiculed by his peers for studying the oral administration of Collagen Type II (chicken collagen) for rheumatoid arthritis!
Effects of oral administration of type II collagen on rheumatoid arthritis
Trentham wasn’t a gastroenterologist, but a rheumatologist, and n’ere the twain shall meet between medical specialties. However, it intrigued me that a rheumatologist would not think diet had anything to do with inflammatory RA, when he did believe that oral tolerance techniques could modulate immune function in the gut by re-training T-cells to distinguish between “friend or foe.” In fact, I actually thought Trentham was losing it when I heard about this study, knowing that when collagen is injected into the joints of animals, this actually alerts T-cells to foreign antigen and provides the perfect animal model for “collagen-INDUCED arthritis” to study RA. Why then, could Trentham possibly believe that oral Type II chicken collagen could modulate RA?!
Effects of oral administration of type II collagen on rheumatoid arthritis (1993)
…and he didn’t stop there!
The Life Extension website has a very good article about this that is worth reading to understand why Trentham believed what he did although, at the time of his studies, the bio-mechanism of the actions of collagen Type II in the gut may not have been fully understood. Interestingly, Trentham’s studies are pretty much in alignment with Dr. Brown’s bacterial hypersensitivity rationale.
Rheumatoid Arthritis and the Gut: An Inflammatory Connection
Oral Tolerance and Undenatured Type-II Collagen
“With adequate preparation, T-cells can be “trained” to differentiate between friend and foe. Tne place this training happens is in the intestinal tract; specifically, the lower end of the small intestine, which is rich in collections of immune tissue called Peyer’s patches. Peyer’s patches contain T-cells, which become exposed to all sorts of molecular shapes that are natural components of the food we eat (Meyer 2000). In that fashion, we desensitize our immune systems and develop a natural tolerance to new foods without having constant allergic or inflammatory reactions.
By providing the correct 3-dimensional collagen to the digestive tract, we can “educate” our T-cells to ignore collagen when they encounter it in joints (Park 2009; Bagchi 2002). This phenomenon is dubbed oral tolerance to collagen.
Upon induction, oral tolerance to collagen suppresses joint inflammation, as has been demonstrated in numerous laboratory studies (Park 2009; Zhu 2007; Nagler-Anderson 1986). Oral administration of soluble type II collagen has even prevented experimentally induced arthritis by way of collagen injections (Min 2006; Nagler-Anderson 1986).”
So, what this Life Extension study is implying is that food and microbes are influencing T-cell production in the small intestinal wall’s Peyer’s Patches, inducing an inflammatory response. Inherently, this means these foreign proteins are contributing to the leakiness of the gut. Trentham found that “undenatured” chicken collagen, taken in small oral doses, could actually modulate this overly-strong immune reaction (allergy-like response) by creating tolerance of collagen (bearing in mind that it’s intolerance to collagen that leads to the production of the enzyme, collagenase, that breaks down synovial joint tissue – minocycline has anti-collagenase effects), allowing the gut some reprieve and a chance for its tight junctions to tighten up and prevent leakages. This is very similar to a treatment for RA that some alternative docs are using, called Low Dose Immunotherapy (LDI) and Low Dose Allergens (LDA).
So, it makes logical sense that in those with small intestinal overproduction of T-cells (like in RA) that eating foods that can over-excite these Peyer’s Patches, will over-stimulate inflammatory response – hence, foreign proteins creating INtolerance of self (and leading to attacks against collagen in joints). I think Trentham was definitely on to something but, I don’t think he had the whole picture at the time of his studies, which is what likely led to his ridicule. It’s really tough for medically-established values to steer in a new direction. After all, RA is still considered in rheumatology to be a metabolic disorder caused by deranged genetics.
More and more, it’s becoming evident that autoimmunity and allergies are on the rise, likely partly due to the industrialized era, where we all want easy-to-prepare, fast foods, that are nutrient-depleted, grown in tired soil and slathered in chemicals, and the pace of our evolution hasn’t been able to keep up – humans have not evolved quickly enough to create tolerance to foreign substances in processed, unnatural foods and this is leading to gut microbiome imbalances. The term “paleo” isn’t to denigrate how far we have come as a species, but how far we have regressed, because we are no longer growing our own foods, eating fresh, organically-grown nutritious foods that promote good health like our ancestors did. Instead, our food gets trucked in from mass production farming. And, yes, our ancestors did die earlier, but due to things they couldn’t control in their environments – no antibiotics to treat simple infections, no electricity to keep warm, city-dwelling with poor hygiene, etc.
The mainstream are catching up with human microbiome studies, though! “A huge proportion of your immune system is actually in your GI tract,” says Dan Peterson, assistant professor of pathology at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.”
The Gut: Where Bacteria and Immune System Meet, John Hopkins
Hey, maybe Trentham WAS a genius and was also at the forefront of safely modulating RA in the gut without destroying immunity!
Actually –Trentham paid the price for his use of minocin in in SD and RA —when Beth Israel and Dea coness merged he was passed over for head of dept —Never the twain shall meet ” This goes to the heart of my theory -a team has to be put together –rheumatologists are not GI doctors nor internists and should not delve into these areas –my internist dealt with Raynauds -esophagus and a few other issues –successfully I might add –Too many doctors today take on the entire package and imo thats not good medicine —-BY the way Trentham got stung by this collagen fiasco –he got involved with a company promoting it —
Never the twain shall meet ” This goes to the heart of my theory -a team has to be put together
Quite agree, Richie – rheumatology has one gear. I hope I live long enough to see real answers come to fruition. I think this will happen as more and more is learned about the human microbiome and imbalances of which create disease states.
The ancient Grecian, Hippocrates, still thought of the father of medicine and after whom the Hippocratic oath was formulated, was likely right all along. He said, “All disease begins in the gut.” And, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.“
I wish I had your optimism –take away antibiotics for treating sd –hardly any progress in coming up with anything that treats the over-all disease –no place in the past 20 years or so and I am afraid its no place for the next 20 –hopefully a miracle -but its a long shot —Best always Richie
I was afraid to take Collagen of any kind by mouth. I have developed so many food allergies so I was afraid if I became allergic to it that it would look too much like my own collagen. Silly probably but I could not take it for this reason. Also everyone just thinks that bovine colostrum is the best but the fact that it raises IGF-1 which is cancer promoting stops me from using it. And unfortunately I am one of those that diet does matter. I sure wished I could say it didn’t. I miss getting something to eat in a relaxed manner not worried about communicating my needs or cross contamination. If you have been able to reach remission on antibiotics alone consider yourself lucky. My gut was my downfall for sure. I have no doubt. And Methusalah lived to be 969 years old. I think we need to be eating whatever he was eating.
Flare fall of 2014...muscle aches, joint pains, fatigue, hair loss, rashes, etc.
RA Factor 71 in Jan 2015 down to 25 as of September 2017
DR4/DQ8 HLA...biotoxin illness
IGG food allergy to wheat, egg, and dairy...probably all grains
Vit. C&D, probiotics, milk thistle, turmeric, fish oil, methyl b 12, methyl folate, digestive enzymes, Candisol, Ubiquinol, berberine, chlorella, Moducare, LDN, monolaurin, Triphala, Patriot Greens, Paractin
MTHFR compound heterozygous
Igenex IGM positive Lyme, minoMWFBrought such a smile as I read your Methusalah comment, Spiffy! Here’s the thing, with undenatured collagen type II, the optimal dose is absolutely miniscule. Literally, 0.02mg is equivalent to 20µg (micrograms). They don’t sell this stuff in tiny enough doses and it would most likely have to be compounded for accuracy. Trying anything more, like in the capsule size doses sold OTC would likely be disastrous, so you’d be right on that score.
Hope you are well!
I ask about the diet, because when I first started AP back in 2008 I achieved Clinical Remission. I was taking an Enbrel shot once every 4-6 months at that point. There is a “but” to the story. That didn’t last long. After about 2 years I need to increase my Enbrel. I then tried several other biologics, but I kept up with my minocycline.
Now in 2018 I’m having more flares then normal, so I am deciding to try the Autoimmune Paleo protocol for 30 days. I made my own bone broth yesterday, and I have been drinking ACV for a year or so. The broth after cooling was quite gelatinous, I’m sure from the collagen. I will try to keep you all updated. The diet is not a problem for me. I started eating LARGE salads at lunch, or eating meat with veggies only. I will say that I dropped about 7 lbs in the last week. I am sure water weight from all of the carbs I used to consume.
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