Help! Bloating after eating, gut related?

[redrock]

I’ve been on the AP protocol for over a year, and have reduced levels of ANA and pulmonary hypertension pressures, which I am excited about. However I have noticed in recent months that I get very bloated after a meal and I have heard this could be due to the effects of the antibiotic in the digestive system. I have been taking PB8 Probiotics, 2 a day, about seven hours after my minocin, mixed in with all my other vitamins. I’m wondering if I need to take the probiotic alone? Or if I need to take more? PB8 only has 14 billion good bacteria, maybe that is not enough? Should I switch to a more potent probiotic?

[hopefulmama]

Redrock,

It’s a thrill to hear your good news. So happy the pulmonary hypertension is reduced!!!!!!!

I don’t know the answer to your question but I can tell you that my AP rheumatologist Dr. F prescribes 100 billion a day from a medical probiotic product called FloraMax and it is supposed to be taken at least 4 hours away from the antibiotic and preferably on an empty stomach.

My LLMD had me taking between 100 and 200 billion a day of a probiotic that contained many different strains of the good bacteria.

So, maybe the PB8 just isn’t enough?

I think the probiotics cost more than anything else in my protocol but the way I look at it, they’re probably the most important thing after the antibiotic.

Take care!

A

[Parisa]

Redrock,

Are you gluten and dairy free? If not, try giving those up for a couple of weeks to see if it makes a difference.

[lynnie_sydney]

I used to get bloating after certain foods also, including sulphites. I would try going gluten and dairy free for longer – maybe 12 weeks because the half life of antibodies csan stay in the system for some time.

Gluten Antibodies
If you have the immune form of gluten intolerance, or celiac disease, your body reacts to gluten by secreting antibodies. If you are exposed to gluten, the gluten antibodies produced by your immune system stay in your body, causing damage long after the last molecule of gluten you ate is eliminated from your intestines. According to Dr. Peter Osborne from the Gluten Free Society, these antibodies have a half-life of up to three to four months.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/496690-how-fast-does-gluten-go-through-the-intestines/#ixzz1fjXfDSrm

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[redrock]

I was tested for celiac disease as a child and it was negative, so I’d find it odd to suddenly have developed that and a dairy allergy within the past few months. I know that gluten free and dairy free is all the rage now, but in the absence of a true allergy, I am loath to give those up.

[Parisa]

Redrock,

Why were you tested as a child? Were you having digestive issues? Did they do a biopsy? Getting diagnosed with celiac is sort of like waiting until you have a heart attack to treat a heart condition. The intestinal tract is very long and it is easy to miss an area that has the gold standard impacted villi. And, of course, the testing was done when you were a child. Alot may have transpired since in your gut. As a matter of fact, the gut plays a major role in your immune system and may have been one part, not the whole part, but a part that played a role in you becoming sick. Healing the gut can help you turn your condition around. Many come kicking and screaming to the gluten free lifestyle until they start seeing results ie. no bloating, no constipation, less inflammation in their joints etc. Those results make it worthwhile. Apart from celiac many people are also gluten sensitive. Enterolab does stool testing for gluten antibodies and genetic testing for the celiac and/or gltuen sensitivity genes.

[Rosemary Perth Aust.]

Are you on any Nystatin or any systemic antifungal as this will cause a problem in the gut for you Redrock. It would help. Can cause bloating and problems in the gut.

[redrock]

Yes I was tested as a child for digestive issues. This problem has only cropped up in the last few months. I would be very surprised if this was either celiac or gluten intolerance. I know that is all the rage, I’ve heard it everywhere, but I prefer to try the increased probiotic route first. I’m a food person, and life is too short for me to go without my pizza and pasta.

[redrock]

@Rosemary Perth Aust. wrote:

Are you on any Nystatin or any systemic antifungal as this will cause a problem in the gut for you Redrock. It would help. Can cause bloating and problems in the gut.

No not on either of those.

[Maz]

@redrock wrote:

I’ve been on the AP protocol for over a year, and have reduced levels of ANA and pulmonary hypertension pressures, which I am excited about. However I have noticed in recent months that I get very bloated after a meal and I have heard this could be due to the effects of the antibiotic in the digestive system. I have been taking PB8 Probiotics, 2 a day, about seven hours after my minocin, mixed in with all my other vitamins. I’m wondering if I need to take the probiotic alone? Or if I need to take more? PB8 only has 14 billion good bacteria, maybe that is not enough? Should I switch to a more potent probiotic?

Hi Redrock,

Great news that you’re seeing such great improvement in labs and pulmonary function! Way to go!

In addition to the great suggestions above, I just thought to add that I actually take 8 to 10 PB8 caps per day (to bowel tolerance) and have never had a problem with candida in spite of heavy dose combo protocols for Lyme for 5 years. Mind you, whenever I’ve been on long-term penicillin (IM shots or orals), my doc also rx’d diflucan. Seems like you’re leaving a good window between your probiotic and abx doses and shouldn’t think it would be a prob to mix with other supps unless they are anti-microbial in nature (e.g. supps like grapefruit seed extract or olive leaf). I’ve always found PB8 to be a fantastic probiotic (vegetarian caps), but will sometimes rotate or add in a second probiotic at intervals. If you think this brand is not suiting you, you could try a different brand, but my best guess is that the two caps aren’t enough. The general rule of thumb is that candida is easy to prevent with sufficient probiotics, but difficult to eradicate once it grabs hold.

So many things can cause abdominal bloating…..can be as simple as some food intolerance (these can develop over time if leaky gut becomes a problem) or constipation (sometimes caused by candida), to irritable bowel and bowel overgrowth, hiatus hernia, gall bladder issues or as a part of SD symptoms and slow gut motility (gastroparesis or pseudo-obstruction), for instance. Nailing the cause can be important in terms of “heading things off at the pass.” If it’s becoming of concern to you, then seeing a gastroenterologist to check things out may be a good idea.

I don’t think it’s uncommon for SD patients to experience some form of gastrointestinal upset and, interestingly, I came across a case study of a woman with systemic scleroderma who presented with small intestinal pseudo-obstruction and bloating that resolved with the use of flagyl:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21372514

So, can abx cause bloating? Yes, if related to candida and leaky gut, this is likely. However, if other potential causes are ruled out, then it’s possible that adding an anti-parasitic, such as flagyl, might resolve the issue. It’s kind of synchronous that some studies have emerged tying Helicobacter Pylori to SD and that flagyl just happens to be one of the commonly-used anti-micobials for this infection. Hmmmm….go figure, eh? Another interesting factoid is that some parasites, including the protozoans, may actually encourage bio-film formation and candida loves bio-film (which tends to line the gut naturally – it’s the sticky substance found on teeth). So, pretty interesting that so often those using the anti-parasitics, like flagyl, or bio-film busting supps, wind up with overt candida issues. Why? Well, having talked to my doc about this, he agreed that it’s probably because the candida holed up in bio-film is being revealed/released. Sorry to ramble on here…I get carried away sometimes!

I noticed you are taking dessicated thyroid…is this for low thyroid function? Interestingly, it’s now a pretty well established fact that gluten intolerance can precipitate thyroid problems:

http://chriskresser.com/the-gluten-thyroid-connection?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-gluten-thyroi

What explains the connection? It

[lynnie_sydney]

I was tested for celiac disease as a child and it was negative, so I’d find it odd to suddenly have developed that and a dairy allergy within the past few months. I know that gluten free and dairy free is all the rage now, but in the absence of a true allergy, I am loath to give those up.

Redrock – celiac is something you are born with, gluten intolerance and intolerance to other foods/chemicals can develop later in life. And it seems that many who have autoimmune diseases do develop intolerances. Cause and effect is somewhat of a chicken and egg debate. There have been numerous discussions on this topic which you can look through by using the search function. Many people who post here (myself included) have found that dietary changes make an enormous difference to how they feel and to the reduction of symptoms. I never suffer from bloating since making changes to my diet.

Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
Mino 2003-2008 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate any tetracyclines
rotating abx protocol now. From Sep 2018 MWF - a.m. Augmentin Duo 440mg + 150mg Biaxsig (roxithromycin). p.m. Cefaclor (375mg) + Klacid 125mg + LDN 3mg + Annual Clindy IV's
Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil, Bio-identical hormones (DHEA + Prog + Estrog)

[redrock]

Maz,

You’ve brought up some interesting things. I actually do take grapeseed extract as part of my repertoire and just recently moved the probiotics to join the supplements and this is when my problems started so I’m wondering if that might be part of the problem? I used to take the probiotics at bedtime but I also take my glucosamine, calcium, ginger, and tamoxifen at bedtime so I moved the probiotics early in the day. What other supplements should I be aware of that are anti-microbial?

Re Flaggyl, that will not work for me I am allergic to it.

Interesting about the calcium/magnesium. I have considered adding magnesium but I am confused as there are two different kinds, magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate and I’m not sure which to take?

So many things to consider.

[Maz]

@redrock wrote:

Maz,

You’ve brought up some interesting things. I actually do take grapeseed extract as part of my repertoire and just recently moved the probiotics to join the supplements and this is when my problems started so I’m wondering if that might be part of the problem? I used to take the probiotics at bedtime but I also take my glucosamine, calcium, ginger, and tamoxifen at bedtime so I moved the probiotics early in the day. What other supplements should I be aware of that are anti-microbial?

Re Flaggyl, that will not work for me I am allergic to it.

Interesting about the calcium/magnesium. I have considered adding magnesium but I am confused as there are two different kinds, magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate and I’m not sure which to take?

So many things to consider.

Hi RedRock,

Well, “grapeseed” extract is different from “grapefruit seed” extract. I may have confused you – sorry about that – I was really just using the latter as an example of what supps may have anti-microbial props that could interfere with probiotics. Grapeseed extract is used more for its anti-oxidative props and so shouldn’t be a problem.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5509979_grapefruit-vs-grape-seed-extract.html

There are some substitutes for flagyl, like tinidazole or alinia. Of course, I don’t know if your bloating is related to the case study I posted….was really just sharing that sometimes abx may lead to candida that can cause bloating, but that there are situations in which different anti-microbials can resolve bloating if caused by some other organism. I think one would really need to be working with an experienced physician in this sort of instance. There is an AP doc in GA who regularly uses a combo protocol of mino, zith, an antifungal med and an anti-parasitic, like flagyl or tinidazole. These protocols are very universal amongst Lymies and also amongst those who follow the http://www.cpnhelp.org and Arthritis Trust antibiotic protocols and they really cover a lot of ground in terms of bug offenders. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was one universal protocol that would suit us all? 🙄

I think most folks who supplement with Calcium and Magnesium will try to find one that encompasses both in the same capsule, along with Vit D3 that is needed for proper calcium absorption. The trouble with unopposed calcium supps is that they are often poorly absorbed on their own and may cause more damage than good, leading to kidney or gall bladder stones, atherosclerosis and D3 needs to be in correct balance, too:

http://stopmystroke.com/blog/2011/09/06/calcified-plaque-calcium-atherosclerosis-and-stroke/

I don’t take a Cal/Mag/Vit D3 supp – just Vit D 3, Myer’s Cocktails (that include magnesium) and OxyPowder (ozonated magnesium oxides) and Tri-Salts, as needed, for detoxing. So perhaps someone here can kindly share what their doctor has recommended for them to help you?

I think lots of folks believe that calcium is good for bones and so they just add a calcium supplement believing it will prevent osteoporosis. More recent research, however, has shown that unopposed calcium is pretty unhealthy for us. Interestingly, the biophosphonates that women have been rx’d for osteoporosis have had some really bad press as they are causing all kinds of health issues, like osteonecrosis, bone spurs, femur fractures, esophageal problems, possible cancers, etc., but as always the FDA is waffling on about limiting duration of their use:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/fda-panel-waffles-limiting-duration-bisphosphonate/story?id=14486206

The following is a pretty good article on magnesium:

http://www.mgwater.com/calmagab.shtml

As the article states, magnesium is not retained as well in the body as calcium, so it makes sense that to supplement with magnesium would be more important if enough calcium is taken in the diet. A Friend has posted at great length on the benefits of magnesium and she would be a great contact to ask about which supps have had good ratings in this regard. 🙂 As usual, all mineral supps need to be taken well away (at least a two hour window) from minocycline and other tetras, as they will interfere with the abx in the intestinal tract.

Interesting to note that when a person has a heart attack, they receive IV magnesium in the hosp to relax the heart muscle. Calcium causes muscles to contact and magnesium does the opposite and causes them to relax.

As you have CREST and calcinosis, circulation and esophageal dysmotility may be issues for you, unopposed calcium may be more detrimental than healthful in all of these respects, but, as always, this is probably something you should discuss with your health provider to ensure you are doing the right thing for you. 😉 Just offering some fellow patient insights for your further researches.

Sincerely hope you find your answers, RedRock. Please let us know what you discover.

[marg]

HI-
My brother -in-law was celiac as a child and then “outgrew” it, according to the doctor of the time. In his fifties he became tired of always feeling bloated and uncomfortable after eating. He got tested and you got it- he tested positive for celiac. Since eating a gluten-free diet he feels so much more comfortable. Interestingly, his daughter, early twenties, had much the same problem, tested positive, and so now the two of them – and often my sister ( as there are only the three of them) are gluten-free. They find they can buy or make most food they want, though they do miss some things. But they both say the discomfort is not worth “cheating”.
Good luck with figuring out what will work for you.

[redrock]

The interesting this is, if there is any intolerance I would think it would be dairy rather than gluten. I take 2 protein shakes a day and get bloated every time and they are gluten-free but made of whey (dairy). So that could be it, I suppose.

Also Maz, I do take Vitamin D3, I take 5000 IUs a day. And I’m still on the low side, nearly deficient. Plus I live in Florida and I’m outside all the time! Go figure.

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