Home Forums General Discussion Has anyone ever heard of this being done?

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  • #308797
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Hi everyone,

    I just returned home from my annual rheumy appointment. Overall, she is pleased, blood work normal, xrays show no changes in last 4 years and swelling/heat in joints remarkably gone. All except my knees – they are still swollen, and warm to touch. She asked if I would be interested in a treatment new to her – apparently another rheumy here in Ontario has been having some success with it. Basically it is an injection directly into the knees with a cocktail of Humira and prednisone, so the TNF blocker only works in the joint itself.

    Any thoughts?? Anyone else hear about this kind of treatment?

    Diana

    #375314
    Airen
    Participant

    Nope but definitely interesting. I assume this means it doesn’t pass through your body at all and therefore avoid the toxic side effects? Did you ask if that was the case?? I would love to know.

    Diagnosed with RA in October 2014, pain started in February 2014
    Started AP in June 2015
    Taking daily: 32.5 mg WP thyroid 6 am, 100 mg mino 9 am, 16.25 mg WP thyroid 2 pm, B Complex for MTHFR mutation 3 pm, Multivitamin 3pm, 100 bil powdered probiotics 6 pm, 5-8,000 iu Vit D 6 pm, 100 mg mino 9 pm

    #375315
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Yes, this is presumably the case – it is very interesting. I am just reading up on some case studies now. In the past, with prednisone injections alone, my knees didn’t really respond. My rheumatologist wants me to give this serious thought. I came to you all first thing!!!

    #375316
    Spiffy
    Moderator

    Did you ever have an RA factor? Congrats on your appointment!

    DR4/DQ8 HLA, bio toxin illness
    Flare fall of 2014...muscle aches, joint pains, fatigue, hair loss, rashes
    Positive RA factor was 71 in January 2015 down to 28 as of September 2016
    IGG food allergies wheat, egg, dairy
    supplements: C and D, probiotics, milk thistle, Turmeric, cod liver oil, methyl b 12 & folate, digestive enzymes, Moducare, chlorella, berberine, LDN, monolaurin, Triphala, Patriot Greens
    MTHFR compound heterozygous
    Igenex IGM Lyme positive
    Minocycline 100 BID MWF

    #375317
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Hi Spiffy, no, I have always tested seronegative. Antibiotic therapy has worked very well for me, but my knees are stubborn. AP has worked SO well for all my other joints, I’m not sure if I should just give it more time, or if I should consider these injections.

    #375318
    Maz
    Keymaster

    @DianaW13 wrote:

    She asked if I would be interested in a treatment new to her – apparently another rheumy here in Ontario has been having some success with it. Basically it is an injection directly into the knees with a cocktail of Humira and prednisone, so the TNF blocker only works in the joint itself.

    Any thoughts?? Anyone else hear about this kind of treatment?

    Hi Diana,

    Sounds experimental, which always causes pause for concern. The following is a rat study, which doesn’t always mean that such studies will translate to humans, but as it’s still in the experimental stages, I think my decision would be to err on the side of caution, as long-term end points aren’t always known till later down the road.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20722011

    Have you tried natural anti-TNF blockers, such as bovine colostrum, Diana?

    http://www.icnr.org/articles/Automimmune%20Diseases.pdf

    Having had cortisone shots in my knees, it’s clear there are systemic effects. If cortisone can cause elevations in blood sugars, this is a good indication that shots into the joints are released out of the permeable joint capsule. If cortisone can do this, so can other medications, depending on things like viscosity. This is not to say you should or shouldn’t try this, but I think there is a lot of misinformation purveyed about joint shots, in general. 😉

    Interestingly, studies were being run at Brigham and Women’s Hosp, in Boston, on using Vit C (ascorbyl palmitate) in a modified-released gel that only released in the presence of inflammation and they were experiencing great success. I’ve tried to look for more info on where this research went, but maybe it was too cheap to study further. Presumably, because it’s in a gel preparation, it’s less likely to leak through the permeable joint capsule, similar to injections of hyaluronic acid.

    See Page 6: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/rheumatoid_arthritis/articles/the_latest_advances_in_rheumatoid_arthritis_treatment.aspx

    http://www.biospace.com/News/injectable-gel-could-spell-relief-for-arthritis/217035/Source=Featured

    #375319
    PhilC
    Participant

    Hi Diana,

    Dr. Brown did something similar. If he were still alive, and you went to see him, what would he probably do to help you? I think he might inject your knees with dexamethasone and clindamycin.

    See: Injecting the Joint

    I think the inclusion of an antibiotic makes Dr. Brown’s method superior to methods that use only anti-inflammatory drugs.

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

    #375320
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Maz and Phil, thank you, I was actually thinking along the lines that you both raise. I will try to add a link to what I was trying to read yesterday. There is one patient who did have a rather bad rebound from this procedure (I believe it was her wrist). There is also mention of infection, which got me thinking even more. And yes, there are a couple of patients who felt over all better, leading the researchers to believe that the injection did in fact escape the injected joint. If you are interested in further reading, here is a link that I have found.

    http://sciencedomain.org/download/MzE2QEBwZg

    Diana

    #375321
    Milesia
    Participant

    Have you tried natural anti-TNF blockers, such as bovine colostrum?

    That’s very interesting Maz, have you tried it? Anybody else?

    #375322
    Maz
    Keymaster

    @Milesia wrote:

    That’s very interesting Maz, have you tried it? Anybody else?

    Hi Milesia,

    Yes, I noticed a difference within days (though 3 months is the usual timeframe in RA studies and benefit is said to be cumulative over the longer term). I was careful to find a brand that was not from hyper-immunized cattle, but organic and grass-fed and from an FDA approved facility. There’s controversy over the hyper-immunized cattle variety and I haven’t looked too far into it…it was just my personal preference. So many good things in colostrum…immunoglobulins to boost immunity, peptides and growth factors to heal tissues, naturally anti-fungal, anti-microbial and anti-viral. It’s “mother’s first milk” that helps to confer immunity to a newborn. For folks with casein allergy or lactose intolerant, they might want to ensure they pick a brand that has this removed, though.

    Would suggest talking with the doc about it, as with any add-on to one’s protocol and, if used, should probably be kept well away from tetra doses to ensure their full absorption. I usually take my bovine colostrum right before bed on an empty stomach.

    For anyone with Sjogren’s, bovine colostrum has shown significant benefit in one study:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=bovine+colostrum+sjogren’s

    #375323
    PhilC
    Participant

    Hi Diana,

    Looking at your forum signature, it appears that you are not taking an anti-inflammatory medication. Consider asking your doctor for a prescription for an NSAID such as celecoxib (Celebrex), extended-release etodolac (Lodine SR), or nabumetone (Relafen). There are others, but those three are among the safest.

    By the way, Dr. Brown didn’t use antibiotics alone. He also used NSAIDs to help control inflammation.

    Note: People who are allergic to sulfa (sulfonamide) drugs should avoid taking celecoxib.

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

    #375324
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Hi Phil,

    Thank you – you are always so helpful. I use to take Celebrex on a regular basis. I have found that not much really works on my knees for some reason. They are extremely stubborn! It seems to me that they always look worse than they feel since beginning AP. The odd day I will take 1 Aleve capsule, but only once every couple of months or so (when I feel unusually stiff and sore). One thing that I found interesting was that my rheumy did seem somewhat surprised that my xrays do not show any visible damage (I have gone to the same lab each time – no change in any joints over the last 4 years). Sometimes I think maybe it just isn’t realistic to hope for seeing my bony old knees again 🙄

    Diana

    #375325
    A Friend
    Participant

    @DianaW13 wrote:

    Hi everyone,

    I just returned home from my annual rheumy appointment. Overall, she is pleased, blood work normal, xrays show no changes in last 4 years and swelling/heat in joints remarkably gone. All except my knees – they are still swollen, and warm to touch. She asked if I would be interested in a treatment new to her – apparently another rheumy here in Ontario has been having some success with it. Basically it is an injection directly into the knees with a cocktail of Humira and prednisone, so the TNF blocker only works in the joint itself.

    Any thoughts?? Anyone else hear about this kind of treatment?

    Diana

    Diana,

    You might find something very helpful for restoring yours knees by doing a Yahoo search (I get better results with Yahoo than other type searches) using these words: knees inflammation+dr seelig magnesium deficiency
    I just did this same Yahoo search, and interesting “hits” were found. Dr. Mildred Seelig’s book (she is known to be the foremost researcher of magnesium, now deceased) is online, free to search — it has amazing scientific information from years of research and is titled: “Magnesium in the Pathogenesis of Disease” and my search above was about knees. Good luck.

    AF

    #375326
    DianaW13
    Participant

    Thank you, I will try the search.

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