synovial problem

[Eva Holloway]

I found this info about synovial fluid issues ( which I have) very interesting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22426587
has something to do with dental problems. Well I guess I will make an appointment with a dental specialist.
Eva

Eva Holloway

[Maz]

Hi Eva,

Garylc just posted info about this below that you may find interesting…lots of articles about it online and seems to be producing quite a stir:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7183

Interesting, too, that fusobacteria have been implicated in all sorts of gut-related diseases from crohn’s and IBS to colon cancer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/health/18cancer.html?_r=3

The antibiotic of choice for fusobacteria seems to be clindamycin…good old Dr. Brown, eh? 🙂

[garylc]

Hi Maz
Minocycline seems to help my Synovial Knees ? What is reason Dr Brown suggested Clindomycin and at what dose ?
I seem to remember he used IV,s? Is that correct?

[garylc]

Hi Maz
I have a study that was carried out in 2009 in Vaccine;[march 4;27 [10] :1589-1595 A novel vaccine targeting Fusobacterium nucleatum against abscesses and halitosis.I am trying to obtain this nasal vaccine or more info about it. Do you have any suggestions or help on finding it? It is being tested by Division of Oral Biology and Medicine,University of California,Los angeles School of dentistry,Ca90095 Usa. It sounds great at reducing swelling and blocking migration of F nucleatum to other Synovial
fluids.

[garylc]

hi Maz
The nasal spray corresponding author at

dept of medicine,division of dermatology,university of california room 3217a,3350 La Jolla village drive San Diego ca
92161 tel 1 858 552 8585 ext 3708 or email chunming @ucad.edu [c-m Huang ]
I suggest that it might be better for you to be our group representative in enquiring about the Nasal immunization spray
gary

[garylc]

Sorry Maz the Pubmed citation pmid pmc 3057132

[Maz]

@garylc wrote:

The nasal spray corresponding author at

dept of medicine,division of dermatology,university of california room 3217a,3350 La Jolla village drive San Diego ca
92161 tel 1 858 552 8585 ext 3708 or email chunming @ucad.edu [c-m Huang ]
I suggest that it might be better for you to be our group representative in enquiring about the Nasal immunization spray

Hi Gary,

Here is the link to the study you are talking about for the possible interest of others:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19162109

This study was a murine (mouse) study, published in March 2009 and it can take many years of studies (animal and then human) before pharmaceuticals will invest in such therapies. These drugs, when developed, then need to go through FDA approval, which can take more time. It could, therefore, be some years before such a drug was available and considered safe for human use.

This vaccine is being studied for halitosis and tooth abscesses. I have some major concerns about such a vaccine for use by rheumatics, however. Many vaccines are created from inactivated pieces of an organism and this one is being created from the whole organism inactivated by ultraviolet light.

“Here we develop a novel vaccine using ultraviolet-inactivated Fusobacterium nucleatum (F. nucleatum), a representative oral bacterium for halitosis.”

Dr. Brown believed that it was not the organism itself to which rheumatics were “allergic,” but to the toxins they release, which logically would be perfectly fine if the organism in a vaccine is “inactivated.” After all, theoretically, an inactivated organism is incapable of releasing antigenic substances. However, it has also been suspected for a long time (and Brown also discussed this in the book) that offending organisms have outer surface proteins which are very similar to our own proteins and so even the inactivated form of a bug can create problems of persistence through molecular mimicry. Some organisms are so clever that when under attack by the immune system or abx, they can change their outer surface proteins very swiftly, thus tricking the immune system. It is likely one of the reasons why those with Lyme have hyperactive immune systems creating a situation of hyper-vigilance where immune system cells are on constant look-out for these bugs and can’t find them.

This actually happened with the LymeRix vaccine, where the drug developers used certain outer surface proteins of the borrelia spirochete to make this drug (e.g. OSP A which is located at Band 31 on a western blot and which is no longer on the test, as a result!). The politics that unraveled from this fiasco was incredible (you can read about this at the link below written by Pamela Weintraub who is a medical editor of Discover Magazine and wrote “Cure Unknown”). What the developers of this vaccine didn’t expect (or it is contended that they did, but ignored), was that anyone who carried certain genetic haplotypes (HLA DR4), but were perfectly healthy prior to receiving the vaccine, would be at risk for developing rheumatoid arthritis if they received the vaccine. This sadly actually happened in numerous people, as result, and the vaccine was withdrawn quickly and quietly from the market. However, many law suits ensued over this that you can read about online. The company, SmithKline Beecham (now GSK), claimed in Press Releases about LymeRix’s withdrawal from the market that it was due to lack of interest by doctors and public in the vaccine, but the sorry truth is that it quickly became known that the vaccine was causing RA. You can read this sorry tale here:

http://www.whale.to/m/lymerix8.html

I won’t go into the whole saga of the whole Lyme debate, because I don’t want to hijack this thread with Lyme politics, and the link above really explains everything in vivid color if anyone has an interest in the subject.

Gary, I hope that explains why I’d personally be really reluctant to take any vaccine to try to prevent or control RA by using live or dead vaccines, even if it was available now for human use. I’m so sorry, as I think you must have done a lot of research on this topic and it bears a lot of merit. I have no doubt oral pathogens are involved in RA and other rheumatic diseases – there has just been so much research in recent years indicating this, but I also think it’s only one piece of a very complex picture. My own lay perspective is that some dastardly bug or environmental assault takes out the immune system (bacterial, viral or fungal) and this then leaves the playing field open to a free-for-all for numerous other pathogens (both latent and active) to become opportunistic in a weakened immune system setting. Another concern is that this vaccine is being studied for entirely different diseases – halitosis (bad breath) and abscesses and not rheumatic disease. Who is to say that when this vaccine reaches the market (if it does, as only 1 in 10 new drugs ultimately does reach the market) that a similar scenario may unfold as the LymeRix vaccine? I just don’t know and I don’t think this can be predicted by anyone right now.

Thanks again for sharing this important find! 🙂

[Author]

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