Hydrochloric Acid

[A Friend]

[align=left]Hi All,
 
An article about Hydrochloric Acid, which can be accessed by the link below, looks very important to me — have just skimmed over it.   I can't believe I've never seen it there before, or anywhere else,  unless it is fairly new.     
 

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[align=left]http://www.rheumatic.org/hcl.htm[/align]

[align=left]CHECK YOUR STOMACH FOR SUFFICIENT HYDROCHLORIC ACID[/align]

[align=left]HCL (DILUTE HYDROCHLORIC ACID) THERAPY
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[A Friend]

 

Warning…. About the Hydrochloric Acid article I posted.  It is one of the longest articles I have ever read! 

Surprisingly, the article from Rheumatic.org appeared when I did a search trying to find Lynne's articles she had scanned and e-mailed to me.  (I thought I'd read about everything on the http://www.rheumatic.org site.)  I didn't find Lynne's articles, but did find the HCL article with the link to Rheumatic.org  — and read the WHOLE thing.  And found it profound!!!

I was pretty amazed as I read every bit of it… the article addresses all of the symptoms/problems I've posted about to all of you for the past several years regarding my own escalating problems.  I do believe I was on the right track, (though the importance of my low HCL was one of the last things I learned prior to reading this) and I will be sharing this link with my wonderful new Primary Care Physician, who I learned right away is a thinker who has an open mind. 

I plan to print the article, but haven't done a Print Preview yet to see how long it is.   Just guessing, I'll bet it is at least 25 pages. 

 

[A Friend]

I can't believe it was only 13 pages and not 25 (but smaller print) … guess it was late last night when I found it and I was tired. 

[Lynne G.SD]

Hi Friend,  I have not a clue what I am doing here,just hoping that this post goes through.Hubby is going to re-scan the info I sent yesterday and I will send it to you by email.I read Rheumatic's info years ago but had forgotten about it….naturally.Both he and his mom have been taking enzymes for some time to fix  acid refluxand have not had a problem since.He is 70 and she is 93.Never thought I could convince them of the importance of enzymes.One sure way to know if you have a need for enzymes is to check the toilet bowl.If it floats or is pale you have a real problem

[A Friend]

Lynne,

I received a message in my Inbox that you had posted to this topic, so I came here to see.  I look forward to getting page 1 of your e-mail.  Yours is only a 2-page document.  If you or I don't come up with a link/place to read, I will keyboard it and paste it to this topic. 

According to the article I referenced on Rheumatic.org, when the doctor/scientist wrote the paper, he traced serious illness backward to its logical starting place.  If I'm understanding his writing correctly, it seems to return to HCL as the starting point!!!!   I, and many others, have been learning we are deficient in HCL, and have probably been all of our lives.  The writer said this can start in the womb at birth.  Type A's in Dr. d'Adamo's books are said to be inherently deficient in HCL — I'm a type A, but this can happen with other types and for many reasons as we progress into illness. 

I know with your orchid business you're time is limited.  If you will click on the link to the article, and click on File at the top left of the screen, and then click Print Preview, you can go to Page 4 to the paragraph beginning “A better understanding of the concept of disease and immunity ….” and read some really eye-opening information about the way the body is supposed to work and why, and how and why it usually fails.  This can helps us understand what is amiss with us … and it gives a whole cascade of things. 

Lynne, thanks for enlisting my help with your scans.  (One way or another we can get these posted!)  That is what led me to finding the above … doing those searches looking for YOUR document.  

AF

[Lynne G.SD]

Like my doctor says….search for the cause,work backwards and fix yourself.I had a good laugh at “fix” but this girl is alway right.She has CURED many,many people.She knows all about our problems as she was bed-ridden herself for a couple of years withFibro and Chronic Fatigue .New scanned material is on it's way by e-mail

[Juliette]

Hi AF & Lynne!

Just really quick regarding the rheumatic org article… it explains that if you get a burning sensation, you have enough acid already and should stop, but I don't actually think that is the whole story.  I had the pale stools, as Lynne mentioned, but when I initially took the HCL Betaine, my stomach burned starting with the 3rd dose.  I think it burned because I didn't have encough Cal/Mag in my reserves to neutralize the acid.  I think this is the natural process of the body- slightly acidify with digestive enzymes and stomach acid produced by digestive organs, then neutralize these acids with our bodies' stores of minerals.  If you don't have enough enzymes/acid, you don't break down your food well enough to absorb these minerals.  Then, you don't have enough minerals in reserve later on when your body produces these acids, even at a lower rate than optimal.  That's why the digestive enzymes paired with the cal/mag 45 min or so later is helpful.  This is just based on what I've been reading and putting together from a variety of sources and my own experiences.  But, I no longer have the light stools and my Raynaud's is a ton better. 

[A Friend]

Juliette,

Sounds like you could have (or have had) inflammed membrane lining.  Had you been taking a lot of pain medications, NSAIDs or the like?  Sometimes these can cause such problems, I believe. 

If you ever find time to read the whole posted article from rheumatic.org (especially page 4 and after), it may shed more light on your problem. 

If you do have inflammed gastro track, you probably have malabsorption as well and many, if not most of us, do have some overgrowth of unfriendly organisms in our guts.  The Leo Galland link posted  aboout dysbiosis some time back on the old BB may be helpful.  These are some links I just found by doing searches which cover a variety of gastrointestinal problems associated with chronic illnesses.   

About Dr. Leo Galland:

http://members.aol.com/pbchowka/galland.html [excerpts  below]

Two decades ago Leo Galland, M.D., an honors graduate of Harvard University Medical School, left academic medicine to establish a private practice in a small Connecticut town. During his extensive work in the medical field, Galland expanded the scope of his practice to include both innovative and traditional natural therapies. Currently he maintains a private consulting practice in New York City, where he specializes in helping people who suffer from complex, chronic illnesses. Through his work with patients, as well as his popular lectures and books–Superimmunity for Kids (Delta, 1989), The Four Pillars of Healing (Random House, 1997) and Power Healing: Use the New Integrated Medicine to Cure Yourself (Random House, 1998)–Galland has emerged as one of the country's most thoughtful and articulate advocates of holistic and integrated medicine.

[Links #2 ]– Galland's comments about the big picture, including diet, RA, etc.]http://www.healthy.net/scr/Column.asp?id=67

If want more of Dr. Galland's views:  Soothe your stomach naturally without drugs — #3: http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/blpnet/article.html?article_id=42230

Drunkenness-like syndrome after eating certain foods, #4:  http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23631

Link #5: http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/leogalmdonfo.html 

Lab testing explained… Fecal analysis in yeast overgrowth & dysbiosis, #6: http://www.regence.com/trgmedpol/lab/lab35.html

I forget so much.  It always helps me when I review such as the above links.  My own chronic illness began after two years of abx for a jaw infection… and not knowing that the good flora MUST be replenished (if wiped out) or we cannot be healthy.  The good flora do much for us, including the manufacture of B vitamins, which we also MUST have. 

AF

[Juliette]

Thanks, as always, wonderful info., AF!

Ah, so the problem is 2-fold (well, at least 2-fold!).  It's necessary to correct the deficiency in HCL and rid ourselves of the toxins.  The supplementation of HCL is easy enough, but what do you think is the best way to dump the toxins?  And how do you think mino plays into all of this?

There is not much room for improvement in my diet as I've eaten low carb (mostly lean meats and veggies) for a long time now.   For me, diet change has been essential in combating yeast.

I have been taking the digestive enzymes before I eat and the cal/mag afterwards.  If I don't get enough cal/mag each day, that's when I wake up with achy fingers and toes.  I was thinking that those were helping with the detox?  What do you think?

Also, I know the lemon/olive oil drink for me is great at first, but then results in a surge of yeast.  I know Lynne has mentioned a sensitivity to lemons, too…  I wonder if it is their extreme alkalinity leading to an a state of constant alkadosis? 

[A Friend]

Juliette,

You are so welcome for anything posted that may help you.  

Juliette wrote:  Ah, so the problem is 2-fold (well, at least 2-fold!).  It's necessary to correct the deficiency in HCL and rid ourselves of the toxins.  The supplementation of HCL is easy enough, but what do you think is the best way to dump the toxins?  And how do you think mino plays into all of this?

Well, it's hard to determine how many “fold” our problems are.  My crystal ball has never worked that well…. even for me!  lol  The deficiency in HCL might be pretty simple.  If you click on the http://www.rheumatic.org/hcl.htm link (I typed this link from memory, so hope it is correct — it wasn't correct, but this dear new screen gave me an edit button and I could correct it!!! Yeh!), the first thing you will read is how to test to see if you are deficient in HCL.  It sounds simple, and I plan to give it a try as soon as I get some of the tablets recommended. 

To dump the toxins, a start would be the lemon/olive oil drink (if you determine no reason not to consume the lemon).  Lemon is actually acid, but in the body (I understand) it becomes alkaline.  It and grapefruit (I read) are two of the best fruits we can consume.  The lemon/olive oil drink actually helps the liver dump toxins.  Also, though you won't like this, coffee enemas are one of the best ways to dump toxins.  Dr. Sherry Rogers writes about these in her books.  A very good holistic AP physician has suggested to a very ill RA patient, who sometimes posts on RBF BB, to take Vaxa pH (I haven't used it, but its purpose says it is to usher out toxins).  You might call Needs.com and ask to speak with one of the health counselors there and ask her about the research and/or feedback from people using this. 

You asked me how I think Mino plays in this.  Well, I believe the way it has worked for me is this: 

My immune system was/is on its ear and cannot keep the unfriendly organisms beat down (my HCL deficiency probably is a big part of them getting in).  I think of Minocin as being my “alter immune system” that zaps/addresses the unfriendly organisms that Minocin has the ability to zap.  Minocin is not effective, I understand, against ALL organisms.  That is why sometimes AP physicians sometimes give patients two different types of antibiotics (usually pulsed on different days and times of day); some AP physicians have even been reported to give three different antibiotics to a patient, depending on the types of organisms he/she has. 

When I stopped taking Minocin (after having a horrendous pain syndrome that felt like being tazered must feel … for several weeks), I began to drift downward and began feeling bad enough that I seemed to have no will to search and fight any more.  Thankfully, in mid 2006 when I had developed pain all over and in my bones, and my AP doctor was no help, I asked questions of an ND acquaintance, who helped me become aware of how acidic I had become.  I began doing the things I learned about, and began improving and am continuing to do so.  Things had become so bad, that even a tooth and jaw and pain going up to my ear developed.  These were due to the organisms that had been building and building… while I was off Minocin and all abx for at least 3+ years.  My new AP physician first treated a high ASO titre (which the other AP physician had failed to address) with amoxycillin around the clock for 30 days, and then had me get back on Minocin.  And, with getting meat and other highly acidic foods out of my diet, taking recommended supplements for acidosis, and making sure I was eating a large percentage of alkaline foods at each meal, I am greatly improved.  Long answer to your question about the role that Minocin plays… sorry about thatm but an illustration may be the best example. 

Juliette wrote:  There is not much room for improvement in my diet as I've eaten low carb (mostly lean meats and veggies) for a long time now.   For me, diet change has been essential in combating yeast.

You may want to check you pH according to instructions in such as a Nature's Sunshine testing strip kit numerous times to determine if the different times, etc. tested fall into a very acidic range or not.  Acidic wastes we retain in our body make us very acidic.  Stress is terrible for us and makes us very acidic.  Our metabolism, food intake, lack of oxygen (deep breathing and short walks can help with this), and other things also make us acidic. 

Juliette wrote: I have been taking the digestive enzymes before I eat and the cal/mag afterwards.  If I don't get enough cal/mag each day, that's when I wake up with achy fingers and toes.  I was thinking that those were helping with the detox?  What do you think?

I read that after doing the test to determine how much HCL is needed, we should take the first tablet after the first bites of food. And take the second before we finish the meal. (If we have a tiny meal, suggested we take only one.)  About the cal/mag, some calcium, I read, is difficult to absorb and sometimes ends up where it should not be.  There is a calcium with ions in it (in orotic acid which I remember as whey based) that helps with absorption.  There is also a product by Solaray that I learned about called “Magnesium and Potassium Asporotates” (has some Bromelain in it but not part of the title.  These Asporotates also contain the digestive ions.  I've been taking these since about last August.  They are not expensive, but the research and reports from actual practice usage, in Germany, were impressive.  This was reported on at a Cancer Seminar in Houston a number of years ago.  My new PCP read the research, and we decided these were what I needed to take.  The calcium orotate, in the practice usage, has also been used effectively for those with osteoporosis, back problems, and metastases from breast cancer, and numerous other things cited.  

Juliette wrote: Also, I know the lemon/olive oil drink for me is great at first, but then results in a surge of yeast.  I know Lynne has mentioned a sensitivity to lemons, too…  I wonder if it is their extreme alkalinity leading to an a state of constant alkadosis? 

Juliette, how did you come to believe the lemon/olive oil drink results in a surge of yeast?  Do you mean this happens because the liver dumps the yeast and/or toxins? (What did you mean to write when you wrote “alkadosis” — acidosis?  If so, I don't believe lemons make us more acidic; but believe they are supposed to make our pH more alkaline… balanced.  Though lemons are acid, they become alkaline in the body.  Though, one or two on the Board have mentioned they have some type sensitivity to lemons.  If sensitive, a holistic AP physician (who was my AP when I first stopped going to Iowa) gave me a recipe for alkaline water to drink that uses grapefruit in it.  I never made and used that.  However, presently I am using small amounts of Kyolic powdered green drink stirred into pure water to drink during the day, but not right before or after meals or medications. 

Hopefully, some of this will be helpful to you,

AF

[casey]

Hi AF and everyone,

This HCI article was very interesting. I am wondering about the significance of this in relation to IgA defiency. i am not sure if there is one but i certainly wouldnt be suprised.:shock:

How many have tried this HCL test and is there anyone taking this betaine HCL tablet ?

I asked my health food /vitamin store about this long ago and they said it didnt exist except by injection and then i asked my pharmacy about it and they said you cant buy it either. So , i quit looking…until now.

I dont know much about this and would like to know if anyone has tried it, where you get it and are there different brands?

 

Casey

 

[Juliette]

Hi all,

The more I research this whole ph thing, the more I believe that we are actually too alkaline and that causes our problems.  Yeast, fungus and most bacteria grow best in an alkaline environment and those are problems for so many of us.  There is not enough helpful acid (HCL)- in our digestive system to breakdown foods, so consequently, the food goes through our bodies in big, slow clumps.  This leads to leaky gut syndrome.  I think the acidity comes from the harmful acids our body produces (the non-organic ones, according the the article AF posted from rheumatic.org) and the inability of our bodies to clear these acids.  That's where I think the body's natural minerals (cal/mag/phos) come in.  They are alkaline and can help absorb the bad acids.  Problem being, if you don't have enough HCL and enzymes in the early digestive track (stomach, gallbladder, pancreas), you are unable to break down the food and prepare these minerals in a way that your body can recognize and absorb.   Our bodies have had to draw from their cal/mag/phos reserves in order to neutralize the bad acids the body throws at the poorly digested food in order to break it down. 

AF- you asked why I think lemon has led to yeast.  My diet is really basic which is not always fun, but allows me to really get a grip on how different foods effect me.  I recently had a big digestive herx on MP and initially, lemon water was all I could drink and it helped immensely.  After a few days, my tongue started getting more and more furry (bleck!).  Since I was only eating boiled veggies at that point which I have eaten without the yeast issues in the past, I put the culprit down to lemon.  When I researched lemon, it said it was acidic, but left the most alkaline ash possible in the body as it traveled through the digestive system.  Since I believe that our bodies actually are too alkaline, not approrpiately HCL acidic, I think the yeast loves this alkaline ash.  I think grapefruit might work differently, but I haven't experimented much with it, so I'm not really sure.

So, I've been taking the digestive enzymes with the cal/mag 45 min later for the last 3 weeks and this is what I've noticed.  My heart is pumping better which has of course improved my Raynaud's.  It is freezing here and I am cold, but a normal person cold- not the kind that grips at your core and makes you consta-shudder!   Well, it makes sense since we need calcium to contract our blood vessels and magnesium to relax them.  However, it didn't seem to matter when I took cal/mag before, without the digestive enzymes.   Also, I am processing the simple carbs I am eating way better than I have before now.  My tongue is gradually getting more and more pink.   I just think the digestive enzymes (acidic) is helping me absorb them better.

Casey- I had no problem buying the HCL-Betaine capsules at my local health food store.  Actually, though, I found those were too harsh for me at this point.  I know the article from rheumatic.org refers to the HCL acid as the best, most efficient, etc… When I took them, I could feel them burning all the way into my sinus/teeth area which has been a problem area for me.  I actually have had pain in one of my back molars that has been rooted and rerooted that has been totally relieved in part due to the HCL.  However, it burned my stomach something fierce and I think it caused such major die-off that my body was having trouble detoxing.  So, I switched to the enzymes which are gentler on my stomach.  I plan to try the HCL again, but next time I will divide the capsules and see if that helps.  The brand I use for digestive enzymes is Source Naturals Digestive Enzymes.

Like I mentioned before, this is what I've put together from reading a ton of stuff on ph and HCl and seeing how it fit with my body.  So, right now I am trying to figure out the best way to detox.  I think Marshall's idea that we need to kill bacteria slowly so it doesn't overwhelm our bodies fits with these ideas.  Switching our bodies to an environment that is unfriendly to invaders (a “healthy” acidic) while improving our detoxification systems in the meantime to get rid of those that die-off seems important.  Not overwhelming our bodies with foods that are difficult for our digestive system to breakdown also might help.  I am gradually getting my brain around what seems to be working for me, and trying to put it all together.  I was really stuck on the idea of a pure acid(bad) vs. alkaline (good) model for a long while.  I think this one fits what I've experienced with my own body better- but who knows what I'll think tomorrow- LOL!

Have a great day!  J.

[Bill]

Juliete,

Always good to read your post's and to see how things are going on the MP.

 We can be way overly acidic and still have very little HCL in our bodies,  and yes then we do start drawing too many minerals from our bones in an attempt to buffer.

The biggest proponnent of HCL supplemntation I know of is PHD biochemist and clinical nutritionist Dr. Bob Marshall of the radio show Healthline. ( http://www.healthline.cc on the web.) I believe he has about 30 years experience in helping people with chronic health concerns. He is the only Dr. Outside of AP or MP protocols that I have heard frequently speak of mycoplasma, bio films, and hidden infections in the body. One of his biggest issues is the fact that most people are deficient in HCL particularly as they age. Also if they eat a typical cooked American diet.

So you are totally correct that most of us are deficient in this and this does interfere with our ability to absorb nutrients,kill bacteria and maintain proper intestinal flora.

Marshall however is also a huge proponnent of maintaining an alkaline ph in the body. He suggest's people use ph paper and check their first morning urine. Which he wants in the alkaline zone between 6.5 and 7.0. This will help the body excrete wastes and absorb far more oxygen. It protects bones and makes it more difficult for bacteria and viruses to take hold. He suggest people eat a diet rich with fresh vegetables and also use an ionic coral mineral supplement which promotes an alkaline ph. And it is very effective for me as is the HCL. He finds when it is difficult for people to get in the proper ph range even with the alkaline foods and supplements then there is often a hidden infection in the body.

 So while we need the high levels of HCL in the digestive tract. We also need an alkaline ph in our urine,saliva, and tissues to maintain optimum health and heal of disease. One does not contradict the other

 The combination of the two has helped me greatly. So this is at least my understanding of it and I thought I would share it.

 Please keep us posted on the MP progress.

Be well,

Bill

[Juliette]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the great info.  I wrote down when Dr. Bob Marshall is on in my area so I can listen. 

I have a few questions for you…  how long have you been doing this HCL supplemenation and alkaline diet and what improvements have you seen?  Also, does Dr. Bob Marshall say what a exceedingly alkaline urine ph indicates? 

I really appreciate the info. you provided.  If you have any more to send my way, I would be really interested.  Many thanks!  J.

[A Friend]

Casey, I have not done the HCL test yet.  I have to get the pills to do the testing, for I have capsules.  The pills are cut in two for the purpose of testing. 

You asked about “the significance of this in relation to IgA defiency. i am not sure if there is one but i certainly wouldnt be suprised.”

I will see if I can find anything about IgA deficiency… though right now, I plead ignorance. 

Though I haven't done the HCL test, I have been taking Super Digestive Enzymes with HCL from vegetables sources for a long time (but forget often), and this product also has a number of other enzymes in it, including pepsin.  I had not been taking my capsules according to what I read in the long Rheumatic.org HCL article, but have begun taking one after taking the first few bites of food.  If I'm having a large meal with significant protein, (according to the article) I take another capsule before I finish eating. 

I had not been taking these during the meal.  Now, when I take  two during a meal, while I do not have any significant discomfort or reaction, I do seem to notice a difference in sensations from my digestive tract.  Hopefully, it is doing something good down there!!! 

AF

Update: Feb 21, 2008:  I did a search using IgA deficiency and HCL, and a lot of scientific verbage was found.  One link discussed celiac conditions.  This triggered remembering a talk I heard on the subject of animals who were not supposed to eat grains (designed to eat grass).  These cattle when fed grains to fatten them to bring more money as beef cattle develop e Coli in their guts when they are not able to digest the grains properly, and this was said to be one of the problems with the meat supply at that time.  So, my mind made a leap here… wondering (and supposing) that if any of us have celiac OR have celiac syndrome (symptoms that resemble celiac but they do not have true celiac), would HCL and pepsin address this problem?  Don't know the answer to this, but if we do the HCL test appearing in the first paragraph of the rheumatic HCL link, and need more HCL, one might suppose it might be helpful.  However, one might also suppose if one has celiac/celiac syndrome, it would be good to get gluten out of the diet, as well as have adequate HCL.  Bottom line, smarter minds than mine need to look at IgA deficiency and HCL for you.  AF

[Author]

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