Home Forums General Discussion "Antibiotics could cure 40% of chronic back pain patients"

This topic contains 30 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  enzed 3 years ago.

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  • #368171
    lynnie_sydney
    Moderator

    Plain amoxicillin is first-line stuff. The pink suspension they give kids goes down like candy. Augmentin, in our experience, is more of the real deal. 100 days would be hard on the gut.

    Yes it would be and taking a good multi-strain probiotic well away from the medication would be an absolute must

    Be well! Lynnie

    Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
    Mino 2003-2007 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate mino/doxy
    abx: MWF a.m. Augmentin Duo (1/2 x 875mg) + 250mg Klacid p.m. Cefaclor (1/4 x 375mg) + 250mg Zithromax. Annual Clindy IV's
    Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
    Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, CoQ10, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, B3 1000mcg, EPO 1000mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil equiv 400mg
    Topical bio-identical estradiol + DHEA caps + Progesterone caps

    #368172
    enzed
    Participant

    @lynnie_sydney wrote:

    Plain amoxicillin is first-line stuff. The pink suspension they give kids goes down like candy. Augmentin, in our experience, is more of the real deal. 100 days would be hard on the gut.

    Yes it would be and taking a good multi-strain probiotic well away from the medication would be an absolute must

    Would Greek yoghurt be an effective probiotic?

    #368173
    lynnie_sydney
    Moderator

    Would Greek yoghurt be an effective probiotic?

    Not nearly enough. I’d look into something like Protexin (you can order online) – they manufacture for both human and animal use. Think the human grade capsules are Bio-Kult. Whatever you use, it should be a multi-strain pro-biotic. Greek yoghurt may be fine for normal daily maintenance use but, when using antibiotics or when there are other gut issues, something better and broader in terms of micro-organisms is required.

    And, I agree with Suzanne. 100 days of something like Augmentin would be a huge strain on your gut (wiping out the beneficial microflora) and I’m not sure about the rest of your health either. A therapeutic probe like this is something I would do with a doctor monitoring rather than alone.

    Be well! Lynnie

    Palindromic RA 30 yrs (Chronic Lyme?)
    Mino 2003-2007 100mg MWF - can no longer tolerate mino/doxy
    abx: MWF a.m. Augmentin Duo (1/2 x 875mg) + 250mg Klacid p.m. Cefaclor (1/4 x 375mg) + 250mg Zithromax. Annual Clindy IV's
    Diet: no gluten, dairy, sulphites, low salicylates
    Supps: 600mg N-AC BID, 1000mg Vit C, CoQ10, P5P 40mg, zinc picolinate 60mg, B3 1000mcg, EPO 1000mg, Lithium orotate 20mg, Magnesium Oil equiv 400mg
    Topical bio-identical estradiol + DHEA caps + Progesterone caps

    #368174
    Maz
    Keymaster

    @enzed wrote:

    I stopped the minocycline on 14 April as I decided it wasn’t the correct antibiotic for me after 6 months on it so the publication of this research is timely for me. If only I had spotted it 12 years ago!

    Hi Enzed,

    If you don’t mind me asking, I’m curious as to why you felt the minocycline was not the abx for you after 6 months of use? Were you not seeing any progress or having side-effects? In your sig line it says you were only on 50mg a day for your scleroderma. Was there a reason you couldn’t do the full Harvard Protocol dosage? Could it be that being on such a small daily dose was not as effective as a higher dose might have been?

    With regard to length of time on penicillins, my LLMD put me on 775mg BID Moxatag (extended release penicillin for about 8 or 9 months a couple years ago for my Lyme and was also put on 100mg Diflucan at the same time. The herx was great, but the progress I made during that time was phenomenal…my highly elevated anti-CCP coming down by 40 points a month. Aside from the big herx, I tolerated the dose and duration of treatment very well and just took 10 PB8 caps daily. I can’t say with certainty that everyone would do as well, but I tolerated this course of treatment just fine with no ill effects. The reason I stopped was because I reached a plateau…a signal to LLMDs to switch things up to keep the bugs on the run.

    The thing about minocycline alone for SD is that it can take some time to kick in and many SDers don’t see improvements until they have managed to stop that freight train from advancing. This can take a year or more. However, this abx has some great immune-modulating effects for SDers, so is generally the best when kept as a core therapy, adding other abx to the mix. For instance, azithromycin and an azole can be added to a tetracycline, as they can compliment one another. When using daily penicillin, however, it’s not a good idea to also use a tetracycline as it can reduce or negate the effect of penicillin. Tetracyclines work by causing cellular protein synthesis whereas penicillins work in an opposite fashion by inhibiting cell wall synthesis.

    Just wondering, is there any way you could remain on the minocycline and just add a complementary abx that would have similar bacteriocidal effects as a penicillin, such as azithromycin?

    Severe, swift onset RA as a result of Lyme disease
    Current Meds: Biaxin (500mg BID), Tetracycline (500mg BID), Tirosint (88mcg), Liothyronine (10 mcg), Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin, LDN (3mg), Topical Progesterone,
    Current Supps: Curcumin, Bovine Colostrum, ALA. NAC, Milk Thistle, Super Liquid Folate/B12/B-Complex, Probiotics, Vit D3
    Supportive Measures: IV Myer's Cocktails, IV Glutathione, FIR Sauna, Gluten-free diet, Gym.

    #368175
    enzed
    Participant

    @maz wrote:

    @enzed wrote:

    I stopped the minocycline on 14 April as I decided it wasn’t the correct antibiotic for me after 6 months on it so the publication of this research is timely for me. If only I had spotted it 12 years ago!

    Hi Enzed,

    If you don’t mind me asking, I’m curious as to why you felt the minocycline was not the abx for you after 6 months of use? Were you not seeing any progress or having side-effects? In your sig line it says you were only on 50mg a day for your scleroderma. Was there a reason you couldn’t do the full Harvard Protocol dosage? Could it be that being on such a small daily dose was not as effective as a higher dose might have been?

    With regard to length of time on penicillins, my LLMD put me on 775mg BID Moxatag (extended release penicillin for about 8 or 9 months a couple years ago for my Lyme and was also put on 100mg Diflucan at the same time. The herx was great, but the progress I made during that time was phenomenal…my highly elevated anti-CCP coming down by 40 points a month. Aside from the big herx, I tolerated the dose and duration of treatment very well and just took 10 PB8 caps daily. I can’t say with certainty that everyone would do as well, but I tolerated this course of treatment just fine with no ill effects. The reason I stopped was because I reached a plateau…a signal to LLMDs to switch things up to keep the bugs on the run.

    The thing about minocycline alone for SD is that it can take some time to kick in and many SDers don’t see improvements until they have managed to stop that freight train from advancing. This can take a year or more. However, this abx has some great immune-modulating effects for SDers, so is generally the best when kept as a core therapy, adding other abx to the mix. For instance, azithromycin and an azole can be added to a tetracycline, as they can compliment one another. When using daily penicillin, however, it’s not a good idea to also use a tetracycline as it can reduce or negate the effect of penicillin. Tetracyclines work by causing cellular protein synthesis whereas penicillins work in an opposite fashion by inhibiting cell wall synthesis.

    Just wondering, is there any way you could remain on the minocycline and just add a complementary abx that would have similar bacteriocidal effects as a penicillin, such as azithromycin?

    Thanks for the input and advice received in this thread.
    I started on 100mg mino and reduced it to 50mg after bouts of D&Vomiting, fluid retention and skin rashes that erupted into sores but hardest of all was the fluid retention in my ankles that started as soon as I began mino and became severe a month ago, spreading to my knees as well and I stopped the mino. The fluid retention was accompanied by tissue stiffness all over my body and it became difficult to walk because of the extreme swelling and the pain from it. Blood tests for hormone and thyroid showed nothing, my liver and kidney results were normal, so I deduced it must be the mino. Perhaps it was an allergic reaction.

    Yesterday I began a colon cleanse hoping that will get rid of all toxins created by die off from the mino and then reassess depending on the outcome. My body will surely speak to me!

    #368176
    Maz
    Keymaster

    @enzed wrote:

    I started on 100mg mino and reduced it to 50mg after bouts of D&Vomiting, fluid retention and skin rashes that erupted into sores but hardest of all was the fluid retention in my ankles that started as soon as I began mino and became severe a month ago, spreading to my knees as well and I stopped the mino. The fluid retention was accompanied by tissue stiffness all over my body and it became difficult to walk because of the extreme swelling and the pain from it. Blood tests for hormone and thyroid showed nothing, my liver and kidney results were normal, so I deduced it must be the mino. Perhaps it was an allergic reaction.

    Yesterday I began a colon cleanse hoping that will get rid of all toxins created by die off from the mino and then reassess depending on the outcome. My body will surely speak to me!

    Hi Enzed,

    I’m so sorry to hear that you had such a heavy reaction…it’s hard to know what type of reaction without some thorough immunological labs. Excessive hypersensitivity reactions can cause fluid build-up in the lower extremities (according to a transcript on Hypersensitivity from one of Dr. Brown’s talks). I’d be happy to send a copy via PM, if it might help in some way.

    Are you still taking the 50mg mino or did you have to stop entirely? I’m just wondering if a macrolide abx might be a better choice than penicillin, like azithromycin? If you’re still on the mino, the azithromycin would make a nice adjunct, too.

    Would it help to give you Dr. S’s email address so you could contact him with a bit of history and ask for his insight on this reaction and what may provide a good substitute for you? He is very kind to freely answer both patient and physician inquiries about the therapy.

    Severe, swift onset RA as a result of Lyme disease
    Current Meds: Biaxin (500mg BID), Tetracycline (500mg BID), Tirosint (88mcg), Liothyronine (10 mcg), Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin, LDN (3mg), Topical Progesterone,
    Current Supps: Curcumin, Bovine Colostrum, ALA. NAC, Milk Thistle, Super Liquid Folate/B12/B-Complex, Probiotics, Vit D3
    Supportive Measures: IV Myer's Cocktails, IV Glutathione, FIR Sauna, Gluten-free diet, Gym.

    #368177
    enzed
    Participant

    @maz wrote:

    @enzed wrote:

    I started on 100mg mino and reduced it to 50mg after bouts of D&Vomiting, fluid retention and skin rashes that erupted into sores but hardest of all was the fluid retention in my ankles that started as soon as I began mino and became severe a month ago, spreading to my knees as well and I stopped the mino. The fluid retention was accompanied by tissue stiffness all over my body and it became difficult to walk because of the extreme swelling and the pain from it. Blood tests for hormone and thyroid showed nothing, my liver and kidney results were normal, so I deduced it must be the mino. Perhaps it was an allergic reaction.

    Yesterday I began a colon cleanse hoping that will get rid of all toxins created by die off from the mino and then reassess depending on the outcome. My body will surely speak to me!

    Hi Enzed,

    I’m so sorry to hear that you had such a heavy reaction…it’s hard to know what type of reaction without some thorough immunological labs. Excessive hypersensitivity reactions can cause fluid build-up in the lower extremities (according to a transcript on Hypersensitivity from one of Dr. Brown’s talks). I’d be happy to send a copy via PM, if it might help in some way.

    Are you still taking the 50mg mino or did you have to stop entirely? I’m just wondering if a macrolide abx might be a better choice than penicillin, like azithromycin? If you’re still on the mino, the azithromycin would make a nice adjunct, too.

    Would it help to give you Dr. S’s email address so you could contact him with a bit of history and ask for his insight on this reaction and what may provide a good substitute for you? He is very kind to freely answer both patient and physician inquiries about the therapy.

    Thanks very much Maz, it would help to have advice from your Dr ‘S’ if that was possible by email.
    Yes please, I would appreciate receiving anything by PM that might help.
    I stopped the mino entirely on 15/04/13 because of the extreme reactions.
    Forgot to say I also got sores on my fingers along with fluid retention in 3 fingers too – very scary with Raynauds.
    I washed my hands in Phisohex and also used antibiotic ointment to clear up the sores but the finger fluid is being stubborn.
    The colon cleanse I started yesterday is already working and I’m getting outbreaks of sweating with that too and I expect that’s toxins that built up.
    The Albert et al research on back pain treatment with antibiotics (that started this thread) certainly makes sense to me because of my back injury history and the related infection I had at the time and treated fairly successfully with antibiotics (1984).

    #368178
    Maz
    Keymaster

    Hi Enzed,

    Have just sent you a couple PMs with the transcript and Dr. S’s contact info. Hope Dr. S. can provide you with some insight for moving ahead with abx therapy. All the best!

    Severe, swift onset RA as a result of Lyme disease
    Current Meds: Biaxin (500mg BID), Tetracycline (500mg BID), Tirosint (88mcg), Liothyronine (10 mcg), Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin, LDN (3mg), Topical Progesterone,
    Current Supps: Curcumin, Bovine Colostrum, ALA. NAC, Milk Thistle, Super Liquid Folate/B12/B-Complex, Probiotics, Vit D3
    Supportive Measures: IV Myer's Cocktails, IV Glutathione, FIR Sauna, Gluten-free diet, Gym.

    #368179
    enzed
    Participant

    @maz wrote:

    Hi Enzed,

    Have just sent you a couple PMs with the transcript and Dr. S’s contact info. Hope Dr. S. can provide you with some insight for moving ahead with abx therapy. All the best!

    Thanks very much Maz, I will print it off and email Dr S with details of AP treatment and include my medical history.

    #368180
    enzed
    Participant

    @maz wrote:

    Hi Enzed,

    Have just sent you a couple PMs with the transcript and Dr. S’s contact info. Hope Dr. S. can provide you with some insight for moving ahead with abx therapy. All the best!

    Thanks to Maz I have been in touch with Dr S who reviewed my medical history and advised I have had a rare reaction to Mino caused by die off reaction and says I should be on Doxycycline instead. After showing the correspondence to my family doctor today he agreed to try me out on Doxy under his close supervision. He will consult with Dr S should I run into complications especially serious fluid retention. That is wonderful news!

    I will put the back pain treatment (Amoxicillan) on hold for now while I try out the Doxycycline. I can always try Amoxicillan later on if my body can’t tolerate the die off response caused by Doxyxycline.

    #368181
    JohnnyMax
    Participant

    @maz wrote:

    @enzed wrote:

    I started on 100mg mino and reduced it to 50mg after bouts of D&Vomiting, fluid retention and skin rashes that erupted into sores but hardest of all was the fluid retention in my ankles that started as soon as I began mino and became severe a month ago, spreading to my knees as well and I stopped the mino. The fluid retention was accompanied by tissue stiffness all over my body and it became difficult to walk because of the extreme swelling and the pain from it. Blood tests for hormone and thyroid showed nothing, my liver and kidney results were normal, so I deduced it must be the mino. Perhaps it was an allergic reaction.

    Yesterday I began a colon cleanse hoping that will get rid of all toxins created by die off from the mino and then reassess depending on the outcome. My body will surely speak to me!

    Hi Enzed,

    I’m so sorry to hear that you had such a heavy reaction…it’s hard to know what type of reaction without some thorough immunological labs. Excessive hypersensitivity reactions can cause fluid build-up in the lower extremities (according to a transcript on Hypersensitivity from one of Dr. Brown’s talks). I’d be happy to send a copy via PM, if it might help in some way.

    Are you still taking the 50mg mino or did you have to stop entirely? I’m just wondering if a macrolide abx might be a better choice than penicillin, like azithromycin? If you’re still on the mino, the azithromycin would make a nice adjunct, too.

    Would it help to give you Dr. S’s email address so you could contact him with a bit of history and ask for his insight on this reaction and what may provide a good substitute for you? He is very kind to freely answer both patient and physician inquiries about the therapy.

    Funny you should bring this up, just about the same reaction I had with one capsule of Mino. I used the 100mg, early in the day, seemed fine all day, next morning I wake up an one foot is swollen. I had to think it was the Mino that did it, so have stopped it and now 3 days later all is fine again. I was going to try 50mg, but if there is some allergic reaction, dose will not make much of a difference. I don’t know if switching to Doxy or Tetra will make a difference either, since they are so related. Has any one tried this switch and found no reaction?

    #368182
    enzed
    Participant

    @johnnymax wrote:

    @maz wrote:

    @enzed wrote:

    I started on 100mg mino and reduced it to 50mg after bouts of D&Vomiting, fluid retention and skin rashes that erupted into sores but hardest of all was the fluid retention in my ankles that started as soon as I began mino and became severe a month ago, spreading to my knees as well and I stopped the mino. The fluid retention was accompanied by tissue stiffness all over my body and it became difficult to walk because of the extreme swelling and the pain from it. Blood tests for hormone and thyroid showed nothing, my liver and kidney results were normal, so I deduced it must be the mino. Perhaps it was an allergic reaction.

    Yesterday I began a colon cleanse hoping that will get rid of all toxins created by die off from the mino and then reassess depending on the outcome. My body will surely speak to me!

    Hi Enzed,

    I’m so sorry to hear that you had such a heavy reaction…it’s hard to know what type of reaction without some thorough immunological labs. Excessive hypersensitivity reactions can cause fluid build-up in the lower extremities (according to a transcript on Hypersensitivity from one of Dr. Brown’s talks). I’d be happy to send a copy via PM, if it might help in some way.

    Are you still taking the 50mg mino or did you have to stop entirely? I’m just wondering if a macrolide abx might be a better choice than penicillin, like azithromycin? If you’re still on the mino, the azithromycin would make a nice adjunct, too.

    Would it help to give you Dr. S’s email address so you could contact him with a bit of history and ask for his insight on this reaction and what may provide a good substitute for you? He is very kind to freely answer both patient and physician inquiries about the therapy.

    Funny you should bring this up, just about the same reaction I had with one capsule of Mino. I used the 100mg, early in the day, seemed fine all day, next morning I wake up an one foot is swollen. I had to think it was the Mino that did it, so have stopped it and now 3 days later all is fine again. I was going to try 50mg, but if there is some allergic reaction, dose will not make much of a difference. I don’t know if switching to Doxy or Tetra will make a difference either, since they are so related. Has any one tried this switch and found no reaction?

    Hi Johnny Max – I changed from Mino to Doxy after getting rid of the fluid retention. Into my second week on Doxy 200mg daily now and so far I haven’t had the extreme fluid retention problems I had with Mino. Just feeling tired, more than usual and that is to be expected.

    #368183
    enzed
    Participant

    @enzed wrote:

    Well, isn’t this interesting research! When aged 40 I had a serious back injury and was unable to walk because of bulging spinal disks. After months in bed unable to walk doctors offered me spinal surgery that I refused. I then diagnosed myself as having a nasty infection but was refused sufficient antibiotics to treat it effectively. I obtained free samples of bacterial fighting antibiotics from a drug rep who took pity on me and provided me with supplies that I took for a year. I slowly improved and eventually walked again. From that time I have been plagued with dental infections and spinal lumbar pain. Xrays show severe osteoarthritis throughout my spine that has continued to deteriorate and spread throughout my spine over many years. This has gone on for almost 30 years.

    I have spent the last few days reading all this spinal research and checking out appropriate antibiotics. I saw it on the news and then looked for references to it here and found this thread.

    I am so tired of begging for the right kind of help from medical people so have taken matters into my own hands and ordered antibiotics from overseas. I intend to do the 100 days of treatment that was applied in the research and see what happens. I’m going to be my own doctor. I stopped the minocycline on 14 April as I decided it wasn’t the correct antibiotic for me after 6 months on it so the publication of this research is timely for me. If only I had spotted it 12 years ago!

    I wrote this post exactly 2 years ago. Over the past few weeks I have not needed to take any painkillers for the back pain that has plagued me for 30 years. I put this change down to the antibiotics I have taken since starting AP.

    Also of help has been the electric shiatsu massage chair I invested in over a year ago. When I first got it, I used it daily to force back and shoulder muscles out of spasm but am now able to maintain spasm free muscles by using the chair only once a week. I still go to a chiropractor but not as often as previously. Now it’s only once every 3-4 months instead of fortnightly or monthly.

    I intend to restart AP on pulsed azithromycin which I hope will suit me better than Mino or Doxy. It has taken months for my body to eject the accumulated die off that detoxing was unable to cope with. I suspect I had multiple confections.

    But my dramatically lessoning back pain I think is the proof that antibiotic therapy was the correct treatment for it. 😀

    #368184
    Eva Holloway
    Participant

    when I started th AP my pulmonary doctor put me on Biaxin and within a month I had no more back pains. I went and checked if there was any connection between the antibiotic and my RA and also back pain.I found where a doctor in England had given people with sciatica the Biaxin and witin a few weeks they were back to work.
    Eva

    Eva Holloway

    #368185
    Eva Holloway
    Participant

    here is this info:

    Infection and Sciatica
    May 29, 2013
    by Gabe Mirkin, MD
    0 Comment

    A study in the British medical journal, Lancet, reports that pain going down the back of one leg, called sciatica, may be caused by infection.

    When you have a pain that goes down the back of your leg or the front of your lower leg, your doctor often diagnoses sciatica. He looks for a pinch of the huge sciatic nerve at the back or by a muscle in your buttocks, called the piriformis. However, most of the time, the MRI test does not show a pinch of the nerve in your back and it doesn

    Eva Holloway

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