Home Forums General Discussion Acid reflux due to Gall Stones?

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 19 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #304556
    MMW
    Participant

    That said, if it is a gall bladder issue, sometimes stones aren't seen on ultrasound, particularly cholesterol stones, but these and gall bladder sludge can cause discomfort under the right rib cage. Also, if one gets stuck on the way out then it can cause severe discomfort with pain in the mid-back, right shoulder area, abdominal bloating, reflux and esophageal spasms…like crushing pain.

    Maz wrote the above in Feb 2010

    Hi,

    This is the first time I heard that one can get reflux and esophageal pain from gall stones.   Does anyone know if you can have reflux caused by the stones that have not yet progressed to the painful attack or getting stuck stage? 

    I have been following all the liver flush topics from the search machine at this site.
    My digestion system seems to be sluggish over the last few weeks.  I put on about 7 “unjust” pounds.  I have had constand tenderness in the liver area for about 5 months now.  It all started after using Ketoconazole for several weeks in a row.

    I stopped using ketoconazole but the tenderness is still there.   I decided to do a liver flush (with oxypowder) recommended from past postings.  But first I am doing the Blessed Herbs Colon Cleanse. I did this cleanse 2 years ago and I expelled a 12 incher.  YUCK.   But it made a lot of symptoms I had for years go away.  After the colon cleanse and liver flush I will try the Humaworm.

    Contrary to what many say, I am wondering if one can have parasite and GAIN wt instead of losing wt.   I never have losing wt issues.   It always is a gaining or maintaining issue.   One big lifelong battle.   🙁

    QUESTION:  Do you think Antifungal medication on long term basis could lead to gall stones susceptibility? 

    MMW

    PS  Oh and does anyone know if drinking 6 oz of oil while doing the liver flush will cause a huge wt gain the next day.   I cringe more at that thought than drinking the oil!:roll-laugh:

    #350207
    Maz
    Keymaster

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    This is the first time I heard that one can get reflux and esophageal pain from gall stones.   Does anyone know if you can have reflux caused by the stones that have not yet progressed to the painful attack or getting stuck stage?

    Contrary to what many say, I am wondering if one can have parasite and GAIN wt instead of losing wt.   I never have losing wt issues.   It always is a gaining or maintaining issue.   One big lifelong battle.   🙁

    QUESTION:  Do you think Antifungal medication on long term basis could lead to gall stones susceptibility? 

    PS  Oh and does anyone know if drinking 6 oz of oil while doing the liver flush will cause a huge wt gain the next day.   I cringe more at that thought than drinking the oil!:roll-laugh:

    Hi MMW,

    Actually, I think the acid reflux I experienced with my GB was more a sensation of reflux, but not true reflux, if that makes sense. It was more a spasming type sensation that was felt in the upper stomach/esophageal region. At the time, it felt like really severe reflux, but probably not reflux proper. But, yes, I'd get this bloated, burning type sensation in-between attacks or just prior to one as well as an ache under my right ribs, so it was a kind of tip-off that something was going down.

    Yes, I think it's possible to gain weight with parasites…ever see a puppy with a big belly (usually roundworms) prior to de-worming?

    Some antibiotics have been tied to gall stone formation (but I had my GB issues long before I started AP and I think I'm just a stone-maker). E.g. Burrascano actually recommends Actigall (to prevent GB stones) when patients are put on IV rocephin. Whether diflucan has or not, I couldn't say, except that diflucan is hard on the liver detoxification pathways (shuts down the P450 cytochrome, a master detoxification pathway), so it would make sense that with slowed liver function and poor detoxification that a sludgy GB is possible, the perfect breeding ground for stones. Interestingly, when I was on the Yahoogroups support group, Gallstones, there was someone there who had their flushed cholesterol stones analysed in a lab. The results were fascinating, because apparently they had found bacteria in the center of the stones. Following the dots, this makes good sense to my mind…these organisms (mycoplasma, for instance, are voracious cholesterol consumers) thrive in cholesterol-rich environments (like the cardio-vascular system), so why not in the liver and GB, too? Surrounding themselves in a nice cholesterol blanket would be a ready food source and provide protection from the onslaught of abx. Just fellow-patient speculation on my part, though, Marianne. 😉

    As for the 6 oz of olive oil….no worries. After you've done your flush, you'll likely have lost a few pounds in weight from the colon cleanse prior to the flush! Be careful not to get dehydrated, though, because the epsoms component will have you rushing to the bathroom pretty frequently.

    The flushing process, itself, isn't much fun…the part I disliked the most was the fasting and the epsoms is pretty soapy-tasting. I mixed my epsoms with fresh-squeezed pink grapefruit juice, which helped with the taste factor, as well as using a straw for both this part of the flush and downing the oil. Felt pretty washed out the next day, but fantastic on the 2nd and subsequent days…energized and all inflam miraculously disappeared.

    Just my personal experiences, Marianne…good luck with your first flush! Are you working with an ND this first time around or with your doc?

    Peace, Maz

    #350208
    MMW
    Participant

    Whether diflucan has or not, I couldn't say, except that diflucan is hard on the liver detoxification pathways (shuts down the P450 cytochrome, a master detoxification pathway), so it would make sense that with slowed liver function and poor detoxification that a sludgy GB is possible, the perfect breeding ground for stones

    . …these organisms (mycoplasma, for instance, are voracious cholesterol consumers) thrive in cholesterol-rich environments (like the cardio-vascular system), so why not in the liver and GB, too? Surrounding themselves in a nice cholesterol blanket would be a ready food source and provide protection from the onslaught of abx.

    Yes Maz,

    I believe this makes so much sense.  I just love finding out great dot to dot connections! 😀 

    For those that have done the liver detox:   

    Did you find 3 Tab of epsom salt to be extreme?   All the literature out there talks about the dangers of epsom at too high a dose.  Also they say it is very toxic to the body.    One recipe said to use prune juice instead followed by herbal laxatives one hour later.    I understand the epsom is needed to open the bile duct, though and I don't think prune juice would do that.  

    I was wondering if I should reduce the 3 Tab to less to be safe. 

    Just trying to alleviate my fears on doing the liver flush.   I am finishing up the colon cleanse and plan on doing the liver flush next week.

    MMW

      

    #350209
    PhilC
    Participant

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    I have had constand tenderness in the liver area for about 5 months now.  It all started after using Ketoconazole for several weeks in a row.

    Hi MMW,

    It sounds like the ketoconazole may have harmed your liver. It can do that.

    See: PubMed Health – Ketoconazole

    I think it would be prudent to see a doctor about this rather than self-medicating. You need to know for sure what it is that you are dealing with.

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

    #350210
    MMW
    Participant

    Thanks for caring Phil.

    My mom died from liver cancer so it was quite alarming to start feeling the discomfort after 3 weeks of taking ketoconazole.   I had tried Fluconazole first and for some strange reason it never seemed to work.   (I have just stumbled on a possible reason why and will post a separte thread on this topic.  I think I am  pulling together so many exciting answers to mysteries I have had for awhile dealing with my probiotic problems and  use of flucanazole 🙂 Anyhow, only Ketoconazole seemed to be effective.  That is why my dr and I went with it, even though it is more harsh than flucanazole.   It does the job.

      I was on the same wavelength about seeing a traditional dr about this issue of discomfort in my liver area until I started searching on the subject, especially at the RB.

    Everything I am reading makes so much sense. It really is relatively safe to do this cleanse and a very good first step to try to see if the antifungals have played a part in stone developing. 

    I will let you know afterward if it worked or not.  I won't do this until next week.

    MMW

    #350211
    Maz
    Keymaster

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    For those that have done the liver detox:   

    Did you find 3 Tab of epsom salt to be extreme?   All the literature out there talks about the dangers of epsom at too high a dose.  Also they say it is very toxic to the body.    One recipe said to use prune juice instead followed by herbal laxatives one hour later.    I understand the epsom is needed to open the bile duct, though and I don't think prune juice would do that.  

    I was wondering if I should reduce the 3 Tab to less to be safe. 

    Hi MMW,

    So sorry, but I can't tell you what to do with your flush or if any alternative ingredients would be workable (I haven't tried it with alternatives), but I would recommend that you discuss it in advance with your doctor or work with an ND to ensure none of the ingredients may harm you. Everyone is different, but I tolerated the epsoms very well.

    All I can really do is share my experience…I used the following liver flush protocol:

    http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/liver-and-gallbladder-cleanse.html

    This protocol called for 1.5 tablespoons of epsoms, spaced 2 hours apart. The only challenge was drinking it (without gagging) and then the urgency to rush to the loo about 1.5 hours after the first dose until 1.5 hours after the second dose. It bascially liquifies the contents of the gut, so it's easy to become dehydrated and I found it important to keep sipping water throughout.

    Epsoms salts are an old-fashioned remedy for constipation and directions for its use for this purpose are on the side of the carton I bought, along with contraindications for anyone with kidney problems. I knew beforehand that I was tolerating the epsoms component, because one way to stave off a GB attack that I learned on the Yahoo gallstones group was to take 1 tspn of epsoms in a glass of water as soon as an attack began. Doing this was just a bandaid quick-fix, but it worked very well to halt attacks in their tracks (I think by relaxing my GB contractions). I did need the full flush, however, to actually prevent the attacks from recurring.

    Due to the fact the gut is emptied so quickly, I found it very important the day after to ensure I replaced good fauna by increasing my probiotic intake. I also did not take any supps or meds on flush day.

    By sharing this info, please understand that as just a fellow-patient I'm not advocating this flush for everyone…although in my case, I felt it to be quite benign and it's saved my gall bladder twice now, I do think it is quite important to work with a doctor or ND the first time a liver flush is attempted, just to ensure that the flush ingredients will not complicate any health conditions (like diabetes or kidney probs, for instance). To learn more, the best resource I found was to speak directly with the people who do liver/GB flushing as a practice and the Yahoogroups Gallstones group was very helpful in this regard, answering all my burning (Oooo…sorry for the GB pun!) questions, like the ones you are concerned about. 😉

    Peace, Maz

    #350212
    Michele
    Participant

    Hi,

    Magnesium Citrate is a possible substitute for the epsom salts and something to check with your doctor. My doctor had me do the epsom salt protocol first but it was harsh. She switched me to Mag Citrate for my pending flush. My DH has already done a flush with Mag Citrate and said it was preferable. I hope it is agreeable for me. I will know soon.

    AND Maz, I have a question! If Diflucan shuts down the pathways in the liver why would my doctor have me do BOTH at the same time? Yikes! I'm worried now because I am scheduled to do a liver flush tomorrow! This is not the main doctor who scheduled this but an assistant. Now I wonder if this is a wise idea!

    You may have just helped me figure out why I have had so much extra fatigue this week, too! It could be the diflucan making me more toxic!!! The assistant doc prescribed it as liquid diflucan and to gargle with it. My throat has been sore a lot of the summer and it was suspected to be yeast causing it. So now my sore throat is better but my fatigue is soaring.

    Michele

    #350213
    Maz
    Keymaster

    [user=50]Michele[/user] wrote:

    AND Maz, I have a question! If Diflucan shuts down the pathways in the liver why would my doctor have me do BOTH at the same time? Yikes! I'm worried now because I am scheduled to do a liver flush tomorrow! This is not the main doctor who scheduled this but an assistant. Now I wonder if this is a wise idea!

    You may have just helped me figure out why I have had so much extra fatigue this week, too! It could be the diflucan making me more toxic!!! The assistant doc prescribed it as liquid diflucan and to gargle with it. My throat has been sore a lot of the summer and it was suspected to be yeast causing it. So now my sore throat is better but my fatigue is soaring.

    Hi Michele,

    Gee….not sure why your doc would have prescribed diflucan at the same time as a liver/GB flush. From what I understand, though, it's a good idea not to use any meds or supps on flush day…it's just too much of a burden on the liver. If you're just using diflucan as a gargle and not ingesting it, then perhaps this is why the doc felt it would be okay? It's effects would be more local and less systemic?

    Sure you must have seen this study before, but it has info on using Diflucan for borreliosis, as per Shardt Protocol and the rationale of P450 inhibition to incapacitate borrelia:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15337633

    Maybe the fatigue you're experiencing is candida die-off? Diflucan does place extra burden on the liver, but I seemed to tolerate it well in two week on/off pulses for 8 months this past year (Oct to May). I didn't notice any irregular fatigue, but we're all different, I guess.

    Perhaps you should just check in with your doc prior to this flush tomorrow to see if you should ditch your diflucan for a few days?

    Peace, Maz

     

    #350214
    spacehoppa
    Participant

    Just as a quick aside, I've been having awful gallbladder problems for the past few years (with nothing showing up on scans). It feels like a dull ache in my back and under my rib cage on the right, and sometimes escalates into an acid reflux sensation as Maz described.

    I've been a bit too chicken to do the liver flush so far, but have been delighted to find that since giving up sugar about three months ago, my gallbladder pain has stopped almost entirely. I even seem to be able to eat fatty things with impunity. It makes me wonder whether the real gallbladder culprit is sugar.

    Obviously giving up sugar is a big life change to make, but it has been well worth it for me, with less yeast overgrowth problems, virtually no gallbladder pain and less herxing too.

    #350215
    MMW
    Participant

    Hi Michele,

    Thanks for the tip on Magnesium Citrate.   I had read about that substitute recently.  It said to use two bottles.  But it didn't say how much that was.   How much are you going to use? 

    Antifungals can be very adrenal suppressive.  The flucanzole could be the cause of your fatique also.  You can take note when you get off of it, to see if you have a huge influx of energy. I take Ketoconazole (Nizorol) and it is even more adrenal suppressive than diflucan. I definetly notice the lowered energy, lowered strength and an overall suppressed feeling.   It is a bummer:(.  I don't like being on it.   But it does kill the yeast.  When I stop taking it, the next day I get highly irritable and grouchy.  It is like my adrenals rebound to more than they should.  But in a couple of days, after being off it, all my hormones straighten out and life is good, my strength and energy is back to normal.  🙂 Oh and another thing about it is that it suppresses the little testosterone level we women need.  So as far as libido is concerned…..its gone.  

     Everyone reacts different to the same medication.   Even though flucanazole(Diflucan) is not as suppressive as Keto. I have found that it doesn't even work for me at all so I gave up trying it! 

    You may want to read all that is written about SF 722 Undecenoic Acid.  I just bought some of this stuff and am going to try it.   It is a powerful antifungal stronger than caprylic acid.   It has worked miracles for a lot of people after yrs of struggle.  It is suppose to be good for the immune system too.  It is natural and has no side effects except yeast die off.   I am hoping to get off Ketoconazole and use this daily instead for yeast control.

    Michele, one more thing.   I have been off Ketoconaole for one month.  I had a great month without it.   Then I did the colon flush which used 1 cup of Apple juice 6 times a day.  Even though I diluted it with water and used only 1/2 cup each time,  Son of a gun,  I ended up with THRUSH. So I had to start taking ketoconazole again.  🙁

     I know the liver flush calls for apple juice to soften the stones first before “flush day”.   I read that a good substitute for the apple juice that will not provoke yeast is to take between 2-3 grams of Malic Acid capsules instead.  I think the reason we use apple juice is primarily for this Malic Acid ingredient that it contains.   The substitute  is recommended at curezone for all those that struggle with yeast.

    Please keep us posted on how it works.  I was going to start my liver flush this week.  Now that I have thrush, I need the ketoconazole (SF 722 when it arrives in the mail) for at least a week first. So I will have to wait a little longer. 

    I read also that one should not be taking antifungal medication during the flush.   I plan on stopping my Ketoconazole or SF 722 for at least two days before.  The flush is only one day.   So if I have to go back on it, I don't think a few days off it will matter.

    Hope this helps and good luck with your efforts.

    Marianne

    #350216
    Michele
    Participant

    Thanks for the replies. Today, I re-read the Liver Gall Bladder flush directions again and see that this doc's office specifies that the diflucan will be ok before and after the flush. But for the day of the flush and 36-48 hours after the flush, no supplements, medicines or abx.

    I had stopped the diflucan as of Thursday evening, so because I read this thread last night, I did not take the diflucan last night! Good timing for me to read here! I do gargle with the liquid diflucan and then swallow it per docs directions.

    There are antiparasitic medicine and herbals to accompany the flush.

    The mag citrate is 2.7 oz. for each serving that replaces the epsom salt mixture. (But, this protocol sheet looks pretty patient specific…best to check with your doctor. Heck, I'm concerned and I have a doctor guiding me!)

    It will be interesting to see if some of this extra pain and fatigue I've had is related to the diflucan affecting my liver.

    It's good to know there is an alternative to diflucan for yeast. I will look at SF 722 Undecenoic Acid.

    This thread has given me a lot of information to process through with Dr. Z in my next appointment.

    Michele

    #350217
    PhilC
    Participant

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    My digestion system seems to be sluggish over the last few weeks.  I put on about 7 “unjust” pounds.  I have had constand tenderness in the liver area for about 5 months now.  It all started after using Ketoconazole for several weeks in a row.

    Hi Marianne,

    If your liver is not functioning normally that can cause you to gain weight. That's another clue that the pain in your right side is probably coming from your liver rather than your gallbladder. Unfortunately, unless you have a pair of x-ray glasses (or know how to get ahold of Superman), all we can do is guess as to what is going on inside your chest. That's why I suggested that you see a doctor. It is difficult to solve a problem when the exact nature of the problem has yet to be determined.

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

    #350218
    PhilC
    Participant

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    I have been off Ketoconaole for one month.  I had a great month without it.   Then I did the colon flush which used 1 cup of Apple juice 6 times a day.  Even though I diluted it with water and used only 1/2 cup each time,  Son of a gun,  I ended up with THRUSH. So I had to start taking ketoconazole again.  🙁

    Hi Marianne,

    I feel compelled to tell you that I believe you may be putting your life in danger by continuing to take ketoconazole.

    This quote explains why I am concerned:

    Five cases (four females, one male) of ketoconazole-related liver damage are presented, two of whom died… The two fatal cases continued receiving the drug in spite of its adverse effects.

    Source: Ketoconazole-induced liver damage. [Medicina (B Aires). 1998]

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

    #350219
    MMW
    Participant

    Thanks Phil,

    Yes that is a very frightful article.  A good scare tactic to make anyone not take the drug!!! LOL

    However, I am under a drs. care for this.   People have taken both these medications for months without issues.  In fact I know someone from RB that has taken flucanazole daily for over a year with no problems!  My dr. wrote a book on Candidiasis.  He is very experienced and told me the medicine is relatively safe.   He does routine liver enzyme checks.  Mine have come out normal each time.

    Ironically,  After doing the colon cleanse, using apple juice, my discomfort has died down to almost gone.  (It has been only one week since….so we will see if it stays that way.)  Maybe the malic acid softened some liver and/or gallstones that I might have.

    Certainly the liver flush is worth a try before pursuing the next step….traditional drs. 

    I think liver/gall stones could end up making the liver sluggish and not able to detox very well.   Then if one throws in medication (like ketoconazole or whatever) it may make the detox issue worse.  

    It was interesting that the article you send talked about the resulting Cholestasis.  This could have been caused by stones.   Maybe the antifungal helped promote more stones.  Either way, I think taking malic acid daily while on the antifungal could only help.

    I assure you, Phil, I have done the research quite extensively on the use of this antifungal.   So your article, as scary as it is, is not a surprise.  I am aware of all the negatives, the toxicity and harshness of this drug.  Although, I do not like to take it,  I have made an informed decision with my dr to take this medication anyway, for now at least.  

    I do have intentions on finding more natural alternative to the medication, though.  That is why I have been posting about the SF 722 that I came across as well as the Caprol/ shake.  But first, I will take the edge of my current yeast infection with the Keto.  I will pulse it this time and not stay on it for longer than one or two weeks at a time.   A lot of people on the RB are doing this type of pulsing with their antifungals.

    As I recall, you struggle with taking probiotics like I do.  Do you struggle with yeast?  Have you resolved this issue with probiotics?   I don't think I would have gotten this yeast if I would have continued taking probiotics.  So now I am entering the vicious cycle and going to try probiotics again but maybe more slowly. 

    I am trying the new probiotics that are spores instead of the entire full grown bacteria.   We will see what happens.

    Marianne

    #350221
    PhilC
    Participant

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    People have taken both these medications for months without issues.  In fact I know someone from RB that has taken flucanazole daily for over a year with no problems!  My dr. wrote a book on Candidiasis.  He is very experienced and told me the medicine is relatively safe.   He does routine liver enzyme checks.  Mine have come out normal each time.

    Hi Marianne,

    Fluconazole is not as toxic as ketoconazole; therefore, its safety is not really relevant. The term “relatively safe” is based on statistics and applies to the “average person.” If you are a person who is harmed by ketoconazole, then you are not the “average person,” and the term “relatively safe” doesn't apply to you.

    It's good that your liver enzymes are normal. However, I still think the pain in your upper right side is cause for concern.

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    I do have intentions on finding more natural alternative to the medication, though.  That is why I have been posting about the SF 722 that I came across as well as the Caprol/ shake.  But first, I will take the edge of my current yeast infection with the Keto.  I will pulse it this time and not stay on it for longer than one or two weeks at a time.   A lot of people on the RB are doing this type of pulsing with their antifungals.

    Is there a reason why you're not using nystatin? Also, you mentioned that fluconazole didn't work. Did you try itraconazole (Sporonox)?

    Milk thistle extract and N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) can help protect the liver against the damaging effects of various toxins. Are you taking either (or both) of those?

    [user=1619]MMW[/user] wrote:

    As I recall, you struggle with taking probiotics like I do.  Do you struggle with yeast?  Have you resolved this issue with probiotics?   I don't think I would have gotten this yeast if I would have continued taking probiotics.  So now I am entering the vicious cycle and going to try probiotics again but maybe more slowly.

    I don't have a problem with probiotics. Rather, I have a problem with the “inert” ingredients found in some probiotics. Because of that, I won't buy any probiotics that contain any milk (even a trace) or potato starch.

    What probiotics have you tried and had a problem with? There are many probiotic products on the market; I feel fairly certain that if you try enough of them you should be able to find one that works for you.

    Phil

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    - Albert Einstein

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 19 total)

The topic ‘ Acid reflux due to Gall Stones?’ is closed to new replies.