Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

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Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby PRAgalberg » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:23 pm

I have RA for four years and am following a standard treatment (Enbrel + MTX). It was working in the beginning, but not so much now (migrating pains, constant tiredness, troubles concentrating, occasional depression symptoms, etc.).

Therefore, I started looking into non-mainstream treatments and came across two:

1) AP by Dr. Brown.
2) Clearing food sensitivities (the book "Conquering Arthritis" by Barbara Allan, who had reactive arthritis / RA and got herself out of wheelchair by getting rid of food sensitivities).

By reading several books on AP and food sensitivities, I am contemplating on combining both treatments. It seems that bringing RA to the state of remission, one should get rid of both mycoplasma and food sensitivities. Healing the gut (curing leaky gut syndrome) is essential for the latter. However, antibiotics is one of the substances that actually cause leaky gut syndrome. An addition, a number of articles on the internet state that all RA patients have leaky gut and 95% have candida overgrowth (antibiotics do not help with keeping candida under control either).

Therefore, the question: are these two treatments mutually exclusive?

I cannot find any information on leaky gut in Henry Scammell’s book. I did see in the threads of this forum though that a few long-standing AP followers mentioned that they want to treat leaky gut. I was wondering whether any of the AP followers were successful in treating it while still on AP. Or, possibly, one should get mycoplasma under control with AP, and then attend to the digestive system (treat leaky gut, candida, food sensitivities, etc.).

I would be very interested in learning whether and how AP affects the digestive system and whether AP can be combined with natural treatments for the digestive tract as mentioned above.

Thank you in advance!
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby lynnie_sydney » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:33 pm

Hi PRA - do you hv Palindromic RA by any chance?
I think the antibiotic involvement in Leaky Gut Synrome tends to be more aligned with the conventional way abx are used to treat acute infections.

My AP doc advises addressing both food sensitivites and pathogens. Food sensitivities are identified and a strict dietary regime advised. She also treats with combination abx in low doses and pulsed. It has worked well for me.You can read more about my experience by following links in my signature line, which also gives the dietary and abx regime I'm on (the latter changes as required).

I was originally dxd with PRA and, later, found to have Lyme and CPn in my pathogen load. I believe there are alot more triggers/chronic infections implicated in rheumatoid disease than just mycoplasmae. Likewise, the gut health/sensitivities aspects of chronic illness (and no one yet knows whether these are cause or effect) have gained alot more traction in recent years.
Be well! Lynnie

Palindromic RA 20+ yrs (Chronic Lyme, CPn,)
Mino 2003-2007 100mg MWF
Now: diet to heal gut - no gluten, dairy, sulphites - 70-80% alkaline effect food
abx regime from May 2012 : MWF a.m. Cefaclor (1/4 375mg) + Fungilin 5mg (amphotecerin)
p.m. Cyproxin 500mg(1/4) + Cilicaine VK (phenoxymethyl penicillin)
supps: 600mg N-AC BID, CoQ10, B-Complex, B-12 sub-lingual, probiotic, Ascorbic Acid 2 grams,
3mg Melatonin + 5-HTP to promote sleep, Krill Oil + Lithium Orotate (natural mineral)
2007 testimonial: http://www.roadback.org/index.cfm/fusea ... d/490.html
personal progress:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=371
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby dixiegirl » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:56 am

I have leaky gut and allergies. I changed my diet and it cut out 90% of my RA symptoms.
I was afraid to start the AP because of the leaky gut connection, but I started (after 1 1/2 years of debate) yesterday! So... probiotics will be my best friend and I hope nothing bad happens...
All I can say it that diet can violently affect my RA, and I've met several other people who have made the same connection. Hope diet change helps you-- try gluten and dairy first. Stay 100% off of it, and if you feel better, try testing yourself for other allergens. Good luck!
DIXIEGIRL
-RA--diagnosed March 2010
-no gluten, dairy, soy, eggs--makes a big difference
-low dose naltrexone 4.5 mg and hydrocortizone 5 mg
-started minocycline, 100mg 2x/day, Sept 5, 2012
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby A Friend » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:51 am

PRAgalberg wrote:I have RA for four years and am following a standard treatment (Enbrel + MTX). It was working in the beginning, but not so much now (migrating pains, constant tiredness, troubles concentrating, occasional depression symptoms, etc.).

Therefore, I started looking into non-mainstream treatments and came across two:
1) AP by Dr. Brown.
2) Clearing food sensitivities (the book "Conquering Arthritis" by Barbara Allan, who had reactive arthritis / RA and got herself out of wheelchair by getting rid of food sensitivities).

By reading several books on AP and food sensitivities, I am contemplating on combining both treatments. It seems that bringing RA to the state of remission, one should get rid of both mycoplasma and food sensitivities. Healing the gut (curing leaky gut syndrome) is essential for the latter. However, antibiotics is one of the substances that actually cause leaky gut syndrome. An addition, a number of articles on the internet state that all RA patients have leaky gut and 95% have candida overgrowth (antibiotics do not help with keeping candida under control either).

Therefore, the question: are these two treatments mutually exclusive?

I cannot find any information on leaky gut in Henry Scammell’s book. I did see in the threads of this forum though that a few long-standing AP followers mentioned that they want to treat leaky gut. I was wondering whether any of the AP followers were successful in treating it while still on AP. Or, possibly, one should get mycoplasma under control with AP, and then attend to the digestive system (treat leaky gut, candida, food sensitivities, etc.).

I would be very interested in learning whether and how AP affects the digestive system and whether AP can be combined with natural treatments for the digestive tract as mentioned above.
Thank you in advance!


PRAgal,
I just did a search on our Discussion search link using the words: nondenatured whey. Mary77 and PhilC both had (in my opinion) excellent info and links. I've only fairly recently become aware of the link to Swanson's but am impressed already, based on my own long journey and experiences.

I want to share these with you, but encourage you to check out these posts for yourself. Bottom line in my mentioning them to you, as I've used nondenatured whey for two periods of time:

Once I had such a strong reaction during a time when I had been prescribed a 2nd abx to be pulsed on different days than AP Minocin. I had such a reaction (most probably a cytokine storm), that my AP physician and I both thought I should get off and stay off of everything for a while. I had just learned about research using nondenatured whey protein, and how it "can successfully take the place of an abx in clearing an abnormal lab, bringing it back to normal range. We decided to try the nondenatured whey protein for 6 months. This was based on Dr. Paul Cheney's published papers available.

Now, a number of years later, for other serious reasons and from intense study of amino acids, I got back on nondenatured whey proteins and discontinued my Minocin (subject to go back on it if it is indicated) -- it has been one of my "best friends ever", but I now think I have serious reasons to perhaps need the amino acids even more. This is what I've been using: ImmunoPro® Rx 300 grams Powder #73900 Good information was shared by the posts mentioned with these links:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/health-l ... ursor.html
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6836&p=58966&hilit=nondenatured+whey+protein#p58962
Best to you all, AF ~Had Dx TMJ; 1991 onset illness+abx &TMJ gone (was infection. Illness recurred every 4 mos for 2 yrs...another abx & would leave (caused systemic fungal overgrowth, to me unseen/unknown). Given Dr. Wm Crook's book abt 1993, ahaa! followed protocols, began recovering/doing well. Relocated to be near elderly parent; mold exposure in apt.1996 while bldg. home; suspected dx'es: RA or LUPUS or MCTD. Found Dr Brown book/1997-AP 6+ yrs, greatly improved. Then, overcame Uveitis 1999; 2003-liver cytokine storm to 2 abx,had to stop AP. Downhill thru 2006; found/corrected acidosis/pain syndromes; resumed AP 2006,improved w/new protocols & attn to pH/acidosis,w MagChlor90, BVits,CoQ10, Budwig Flaxoil EFA combo,VitK-2, Biotin/Boron/ ImmunoPro/Niacinamide..doing great. 2011 stopped Minocin; began ImmunoPro/supplies necessary amino acids+addresses organisms + body's metabolic detox. Jan 2013: Severe IBS to Dr suggested VitD3 5000--IBS ceased temporarily ONLY after I took Abx for dental extraction. Dental metals+4 cavitations just found to have been triggers of chronic illness becoming apparent back in 1990; recent surgery on 4 cavitations 06/2014 makes future brighter! Hi-dose Vit C as powdered ascorbates mixed (per Pauling& Cathcart research). Do Not Stop Vit C suddenly). Still learning/overcoming, and still on the "Road Back."
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby cavalier » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:23 pm

When I look at the Whey you posted on the link AF - I was at Swanson's just earlier today as i really dont want to spend any more money than I have too but I have tried this Whey before - I felt I had to use more to get the same as i am getting from Designs for Health Whey Cool.
For example taking from this link for this Whey product it is listed as this for Organic Whey Protein
Concentrate 80% (undenatured whey) (from milk) 10 grams

Whey Cool is 30 grams in one heaping scoop is for Protein is 24 grams. It also lists per one serving for each amino acid in this powder in grams AND Lactoferrin, Immunoglobins, Alpha Lactalbumin & Albumin, Phosphorous, potassium ...

It is also non denatured & only grass fed raw milk minimal processing no hormones chemicals or ABX, GMO's injected pathogens or hyperimmunization. This has a exceptional amt of glutathione precursor cysteine active peptides, glycpmacropeptides & growth factors.
I like that each peptide is measured so I know exactly how much i am getting in each scoop. Other similar products just dont list to this same extent the detail & I cant find a product on swansons close to the same for amt of protein per scoop or these other ingred's. I love swansons use them all of the time but I tried using a couple of their products for this & they were not the same to me. For this i think when my NP told me about Whey Cool & a Chiro also endorses it years ago there is a difference - the others may help but this to me packs alot more punch in each serving and for me I need that.
I am not affliated with Designs for health or Whey Cool just i felt to point out what i have seen for differences. Hope you dont mind.
Best - Jill
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby A Friend » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:11 pm

cavalier wrote:When I look at the Whey you posted on the link AF - I was at Swanson's just earlier today as i really dont want to spend any more money than I have too but I have tried this Whey before - I felt I had to use more to get the same as i am getting from Designs for Health Whey Cool.
For example taking from this link for this Whey product it is listed as this for Organic Whey Protein
Concentrate 80% (undenatured whey) (from milk) 10 grams

Whey Cool is 30 grams in one heaping scoop is for Protein is 24 grams. It also lists per one serving for each amino acid in this powder in grams AND Lactoferrin, Immunoglobins, Alpha Lactalbumin & Albumin, Phosphorous, potassium ...

It is also non denatured & only grass fed raw milk minimal processing no hormones chemicals or ABX, GMO's injected pathogens or hyperimmunization. This has a exceptional amt of glutathione precursor cysteine active peptides, glycpmacropeptides & growth factors.
I like that each peptide is measured so I know exactly how much i am getting in each scoop. Other similar products just dont list to this same extent the detail & I cant find a product on swansons close to the same for amt of protein per scoop or these other ingred's. I love swansons use them all of the time but I tried using a couple of their products for this & they were not the same to me. For this i think when my NP told me about Whey Cool & a Chiro also endorses it years ago there is a difference - the others may help but this to me packs alot more punch in each serving and for me I need that.
I am not affliated with Designs for health or Whey Cool just i felt to point out what i have seen for differences. Hope you dont mind.
Best - Jill


Jill, thanks for your discussion above. I must confess I'm not quite understanding. Did you compare these to ImmunoPro? If so, are you saying the Whey Cool is better than ImmunoPro? (I've been using ImmunoPro Nondenatured Whey Protein for over a year, but like learning if I can improve the products I use. The links you referred to were in posts under this same thread which I quoted/mentioned and were from other members posting on this thread.)

Thanks for any clarification.

AF
Best to you all, AF ~Had Dx TMJ; 1991 onset illness+abx &TMJ gone (was infection. Illness recurred every 4 mos for 2 yrs...another abx & would leave (caused systemic fungal overgrowth, to me unseen/unknown). Given Dr. Wm Crook's book abt 1993, ahaa! followed protocols, began recovering/doing well. Relocated to be near elderly parent; mold exposure in apt.1996 while bldg. home; suspected dx'es: RA or LUPUS or MCTD. Found Dr Brown book/1997-AP 6+ yrs, greatly improved. Then, overcame Uveitis 1999; 2003-liver cytokine storm to 2 abx,had to stop AP. Downhill thru 2006; found/corrected acidosis/pain syndromes; resumed AP 2006,improved w/new protocols & attn to pH/acidosis,w MagChlor90, BVits,CoQ10, Budwig Flaxoil EFA combo,VitK-2, Biotin/Boron/ ImmunoPro/Niacinamide..doing great. 2011 stopped Minocin; began ImmunoPro/supplies necessary amino acids+addresses organisms + body's metabolic detox. Jan 2013: Severe IBS to Dr suggested VitD3 5000--IBS ceased temporarily ONLY after I took Abx for dental extraction. Dental metals+4 cavitations just found to have been triggers of chronic illness becoming apparent back in 1990; recent surgery on 4 cavitations 06/2014 makes future brighter! Hi-dose Vit C as powdered ascorbates mixed (per Pauling& Cathcart research). Do Not Stop Vit C suddenly). Still learning/overcoming, and still on the "Road Back."
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby cavalier » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:08 pm

hi AF

Yes I mentioned i used your link to get to Immunopro to list the 10 grams per scoop - I then listed the Designs for health Whey Cool that my ND & Chiro say is the most potent on the market & listed that amt. for you to see.

I am a customer of Swansons been one since the 90's but they dont & cant get the Designs for health line - I once bought the whey products from Swansons one being the one named hoping I could save some money but I found it took twice as much to equal what i was getting in one scoop from Whey Cool in the long run in comparing them once I had to use twice as much to get to what I was getting from the one scoop it was not saving me money in the long run & if I used less as directed I was truly getting less. Since then i order my Whey Cool from Pure Formulas & it is free shipping I also use by the same company Designs for Health GI Revive. I mix the 2 together. The whey cool comes in flavors or plain i like the vanilla as i can mix it with other things but to each their own that way.
The other BIG thing that none of the Whey products carried on Swansons can compare to the Whey Cool is the amt of listed peptides and amino acids and I believe only one whey product even lists having lactoferrin in it & it is far lower than the amt. in Whey Cool - i also am getting preglutathione in the Whey Cool. When i compared holding the canister of the Whey Cool in my hand here - I can easily see why my Chiro & my ND both individually say that Whey Cool is the best - it shows in it's content.

I have posted on here before of the benefits many of them for Lactoferrin - I am getting that too in the Whey Cool.
There are many forms of Whey but they are not all equal as you know but not only is grass fed & not being denatured matter but the amt of protein & most dont even want to list what they have for lactoferrin & if they do the amt is lower than whey Cool and I have not seen others list their peptides/amino acid content.
For me I need max. bang - & when you mentioned that Immunopro you felt was best and been happy - for me Whey Cool is even more benefit like Sears has good better & best for me I have found & so have 2 of my doc's Whey Cool is best.

Hope this makes sense - I just dont know how else to say it - without listing the entire label for Whey Cool.
Best - Jill
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby cavalier » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:17 pm

One scoop Immunopro using the link you supplied is 10 grams of protein - VS 24 grams of protein for the Whey cool same size single scoop -but that is ONLY the beginning of the differences.

Yes I used your link & repeated it SOLELY to show where i got the 10 grams of protein from - I just ordered some products from Swansons but not the Whey - I just revisited ALL of their whey products to see if anything could come close to what is in the Whey Cool & they still are not even close. In the long run if you double up on the Immunopro it is still not quite what I get from one scoop of the Whey Cool. I know for sure I am getting everything in the Whey Cool to help me including Lactoferrin in good doseages so i am actually not paying more in the long run. Whey Cool costs me less as Immunopro and is giving me more for that money.

Jill
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby A Friend » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:51 pm

Just looked at the online link for Well Wisdom's ImmunoPro and it shows the various properties were all in a 5 gram scoop, not 10 grams I believe you mentioned/wrote.

I know this is confusing, but you might post the link to the contents of the one you are saying you like best. Then people can print or compare it to others.

The Well Wisdom ImmunoPro contents can be viewed by going to:
http://www.wellwisdom.com/content/IPRx_ ... _color.pdf

Thanks for your hard work,
AF
Best to you all, AF ~Had Dx TMJ; 1991 onset illness+abx &TMJ gone (was infection. Illness recurred every 4 mos for 2 yrs...another abx & would leave (caused systemic fungal overgrowth, to me unseen/unknown). Given Dr. Wm Crook's book abt 1993, ahaa! followed protocols, began recovering/doing well. Relocated to be near elderly parent; mold exposure in apt.1996 while bldg. home; suspected dx'es: RA or LUPUS or MCTD. Found Dr Brown book/1997-AP 6+ yrs, greatly improved. Then, overcame Uveitis 1999; 2003-liver cytokine storm to 2 abx,had to stop AP. Downhill thru 2006; found/corrected acidosis/pain syndromes; resumed AP 2006,improved w/new protocols & attn to pH/acidosis,w MagChlor90, BVits,CoQ10, Budwig Flaxoil EFA combo,VitK-2, Biotin/Boron/ ImmunoPro/Niacinamide..doing great. 2011 stopped Minocin; began ImmunoPro/supplies necessary amino acids+addresses organisms + body's metabolic detox. Jan 2013: Severe IBS to Dr suggested VitD3 5000--IBS ceased temporarily ONLY after I took Abx for dental extraction. Dental metals+4 cavitations just found to have been triggers of chronic illness becoming apparent back in 1990; recent surgery on 4 cavitations 06/2014 makes future brighter! Hi-dose Vit C as powdered ascorbates mixed (per Pauling& Cathcart research). Do Not Stop Vit C suddenly). Still learning/overcoming, and still on the "Road Back."
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Re: Leaky Gut and Antibiotics

Postby cavalier » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:23 pm

2 different things I am refering to the protein levels - & you are refering to the scoop size - both are in grams. I was looking at a listing for Immunopro that showed it as having 10 grams of Protein, NOT the scoop size which is also in grams. I just now went back to Swansons without looking at the previous links, it is listed as even less than 10 grams for PROTEIN it is saying 4 grams per a 5 oz scoop. I may have gotten on the wrong whey by Swansons as they have some that are 10 grams per one scoop.
Here it is -
ImmunoPro Non-Denatured Whey Protein
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 Scoop (5 grams)

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving %Daily Value
Calories 20
Total Fat 0.3 g <1%
Cholesterol 5 mg 2%
Sodium 10 mg <1%
Potassium 30 mg 1%
Total Carbohydrate 0.3 g 0%
Dietary Fiber 0 g 0%
Sugars 0 g **
Protein 4 g 8%
Calcium 20 mg 2%
Immunoglobulins† 550 mg **
Lactoferrin† 150 mg **
†Naturally Occurring: therefore amount may vary

*Percent Daily Values are based on a 2000 calorie diet. -

Container size is 10.6 oz Pwdr **Daily value not established. Swanson $32.86 - from this link - http://www.swansonvitamins.com/NCL077/ItemDetail

It is on this link listing lactoferrin which is good & Immunoglobins but the differences are this one scoop for Whey Cool is a 30 gram scoop not a 5 gram scoop - Whey Cool's container is 900 grams total - giving you 30 servings of Whey Cool, compared to 10.6 oz for Immunopro. You can see where if you times the single scoop in the Immunopro by 6 you would come out to the same PROTEIN level of what is in the Whey Cool.
I am using the actual container for the reference for Whey Cool - I have no link that gives the detail of this breakdown other than what is on the label that i have seen on line so far.
My only point is if you had to use 6 scoops of the Immunopro to equal the same PROTEIN level you would be using alot of the Immunopro sooner & the cost would be higher to get the same protein level.
And I dont know the Amino acid profiles in the Immunopro as it is not listed where I do know this for the Whey Cool as they list it on the container label - I dont know what more i can tell you.
best -
Jill
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