minocin and olive leaf extract

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Postby cac » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:48 pm

diagnosed with ra about 1 1/2 years ago. currently take 1 100 mg tab of minocin (brand), 1 200 mg tab of plaquenil, and 2.5 mg of prednisone. want to get off prednisone entirely. rheumy said "no" at last visit. intent to insist at next visit or get reason why i can't try under doctor's supervision. now thinking of adding olive leaf extract -- as i thought it might help me get off prednisone. have read it can boost the immune system and has anti-inflammatory properties. have also read shouldn't be taken with "some" antibiotics as it will "inactivate" them. does anyone know if olive leaf extract can be taken with minocin and have experience doing so? what dosages did you use? have you found improvement in your condition over taking minocin alone? thanks -- cathy.
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Postby Maz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:20 am

[user=1360]cac[/user] wrote:
now thinking of adding olive leaf extract -- as i thought it might help me get off prednisone. have read it can boost the immune system and has anti-inflammatory properties. have also read shouldn't be taken with "some" antibiotics as it will "inactivate" them. does anyone know if olive leaf extract can be taken with minocin and have experience doing so? what dosages did you use? have you found improvement in your condition over taking minocin alone?

Hi Cathy,

I use Olive leaf extract off an on, but more as a maintenance natural anti-fungal. It also seems to have some anti-viral and antibacterial props, so it's important to keep it well away from the daily probiotic doses, as it will negate their effect. It's actually possible to have some herxing from Olive leaf extract, as it is killing pathogens. I can't say I noticed much effect as an anti-inflammatory, though. I was using it while on Minocin, but keep all my supps well away from my antibiotic doses.

Boswellia serratia is, however, known to be quite effective as both an anti-inflam and pain reliever for RA, as it is a natural form of aspirin (without the harsh side-effects of aspirin). It takes a good 6 weeks to see any benefit on boswellia.

When I am taking Olive leaf, I usually take the recommended dose on the side of the bottle, which is 300mg per day.

Perhaps other Olive leaf extract users will add their thoughts for you as to whether it has helped as an anti-inflam for them or not.

Peace, Maz
RA/Lyme - ABX since 11/06
Personal Progress Thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=301
Current Abx Protocol:
Clarithromycin 500mg BID re-started 11/5/13 (dose increased to 500mg BID on 7/3/14
Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin ("Artemisinin Essentials") restarted 7/3/14, 2 caps twice daily, 5 days per week for 3 weeks each month with 7 days off
Ivermectin 2mg (rx compounded) daily, started 9/21/11
Various staple supps: Enhansa, NAC, ALA, Morinda Supreme, KriaXanthin, B Complex, Milk Thistle, Dessicated Adrenal, Adaptan-All, Probiotics, Systemic Enzymes, Vit D3, Magnesium Citrate, Sodium Ascorbate, ImmunoPro, Nrf2 Activator, Liposomal glutathione, compounded topical progesterone.
Intermittent supps: Chemet every third day, along with NAC and BioPure Chorella followed by BioActive Minerals day following oral chelation. Weekly Myer's Cocktails and Glutathione IV Pushes for detoxification. Tri-salts and Opticleanse GHI.
FIR Sauna and other detox methods as described in Personal Progress Thread.
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Postby APbeliever » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:19 am

Hi, I am using Boswellia Serrrata 3 times  a day too on the days I am not taking Celebrex 200mg.  Yes, I know Boswellia Serrata is supposed to lessen the anti-inflammatory effects of NSAIDs but so far it has not happened for me. After every four days the effects of Celebrex are completely gone from my body and the roaring pain comes back which even Boswellia serrata cannot help. I took Turmeric, Querticin , NAC and ALA, Magnesium tablets with 3 tabs of Boswellia Serratata to get off Celebrex completely but no success so far. Next thing on my list are Olive leaf extract(since I couldn't take any tetracycline) and L-Glutamine. Hope that helps you to make a decision
Aug 2008 symptoms started
Methotrexate Sept-March 2009
Mino MWF 100mgs Feb 2009- July 2010.
Restarted Mino Oct 2010 again MTWThF(Infection started RA pains again)
Fish Oil, L-glutamine, Boswellia, NAC, R-AlphaLipoic Acid, Vitamin C
Calcium Magnesium with 3000 IUs Vitamin D-3
B-50 complex
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Postby cac » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:32 pm

thanks, maz. when you say you keep the olive leaf extract well away from the antibiotic doses, does that mean time-wise? in other words, if you take your minocin 1x/day, as i do, do you wait 12 hours before taking the olive leaf extract? i understand that you don't take the olive leaf extract daily -- is that b/someone suggested it wouldn't be a good thing. and re the other supplement you mention, can that be taken on the same day as the minocin and olive leaf? are there timing issues? thanks, cathy.
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Postby cac » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:46 pm

maz -- just re-read your reply and of course i have more questions.
1) re the probiotics, i understand that the minocin kills the "good bacteria" and that's why those taking it need to take probiotics. i hadn't been too concerned with the timing and just have been taking the probiotic supp several times during the day per the bottle directions, starting a couple of hours after i take my single dose of minocin, which i take early morning. do i need to leave more time before taking a probiotic?
2) re the boswellia serratia -- i do take 2.5 mg/day of prednisone per doctor's orders. my goal over the next few months is to get off that completely if possible. for some reason, i understood i couldn't take aspirin while taking the prednisone. any thoughts on this (really just trying to get my thoughts together to talk w/my rheumy later this month so won't start the boswellia serratia before talking with him).
lastly, any good sources for getting off prednisone and for strengthening the adrenals (which i understand can be compromised by taking prednisone and which i understand is sometimes necessary to have success getting off prednisone). i have searched this site and found some information but think my research skills are lacking. thanks, cathy.
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Postby cac » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:48 pm

thanks for your thoughts. there certainly is a lot i need to think about. hope you have success with the new plan -- cathy.
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Postby Maz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:42 pm

[user=1360]cac[/user] wrote:
CAC Post 1:
when you say you keep the olive leaf extract well away from the antibiotic doses, does that mean time-wise? in other words, if you take your minocin 1x/day, as i do, do you wait 12 hours before taking the olive leaf extract? i understand that you don't take the olive leaf extract daily -- is that b/someone suggested it wouldn't be a good thing. and re the other supplement you mention, can that be taken on the same day as the minocin and olive leaf? are there timing issues? thanks
CAC Post 2:
1) re the probiotics, i understand that the minocin kills the "good bacteria" and that's why those taking it need to take probiotics. i hadn't been too concerned with the timing and just have been taking the probiotic supp several times during the day per the bottle directions, starting a couple of hours after i take my single dose of minocin, which i take early morning. do i need to leave more time before taking a probiotic?
2) re the boswellia serratia -- i do take 2.5 mg/day of prednisone per doctor's orders. my goal over the next few months is to get off that completely if possible. for some reason, i understood i couldn't take aspirin while taking the prednisone. any thoughts on this (really just trying to get my thoughts together to talk w/my rheumy later this month so won't start the boswellia serratia before talking with him).
lastly, any good sources for getting off prednisone and for strengthening the adrenals (which i understand can be compromised by taking prednisone and which i understand is sometimes necessary to have success getting off prednisone). i have searched this site and found some information but think my research skills are lacking.

 

Hi Cathy, will do my best to respond in one post to your two above.

CAC Post 1: Yes, I keep all my supps well away from my antibiotic doses with at least a two hour window either side. If it's anything containing minerals, I try to make that window larger. So, If I take my antibiotics at 10am, I will take my probiotics at least two hours before or after. In the case of Olive leaf extract, which may also kill probiotics, I would take the Olive leaf a further two hours away from the probiotics. E.g. Antibiotic at 10am, probiotics at 12pm, Olive leaf extract at 2pm. With an evening dose of antibiotic, I will take it at 10pm and my probiotic just before bed at 12am (I'm a night owl).

The only reason I don't take Olive leaf daily is because I use it more for when I may begin to sense a yeast issue, like a white coat on my tongue upon waking, or if someone in the house is starting a cold to help evade any viruses (though I don't seem to get colds since being on the tetras).

When taking boswellia serratia, I usually take it with my night-time probiotics, just before bed, along with other supps I take, like NAC, ALA, and milk thistle (all liver supportive) as well as my maintenance Neprinol, though I will take fish oil/EFAs with meals.

CAC Post 2:

1. I generally leave at least 2 hours before or after my antibiotic doses before taking my probiotics daily. A 2 hour window either way has worked okay for me so far, though I like to take my probiotics as a 'chaser' to my antibiotic to replenish the gut after the antibiotic has passed through. When I was doing intermittant, every other day pulsing with mino, it didn't really matter on my days off when I took my probiotics. Currently, however, I'm on a daily penicillin (Moxatag).

2. I've never taken prednisone, so can't really help with any interactions there may with boswellia. This is a good question and one your local pharmacist may be able to check for you. You could also try googling for any possible interactions. I've done a quick search but so far only came up with patient experiences on other discussion forms of people using boswellia while weaning pred. This doesn't mean there aren't any interactions, though, so you're wise to check into this further just to be sure. ;)

Lynnie has posted the old post of an AP old-timer a few times for others who are trying to wean off the last few mgs of prednisone and there is a link to a doctor who shares a bit about supporting adrenals during this process. Hopefully this will provide the insight you're looking for, but as a fellow patient, my suggestion would be to work with a physician or naturopathic MD who knows their stuff about this so you get adequate support during the process:

Lynnie wrote:

Hi everyone -  I am pasting a response to this question that I found from our Board from 2006, posted by a very experienced long-term APer who weaned herself off pred after 22 years of taking it!
[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]AP Old-timer wrote:[/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Hi Janie, I was on [highlight= #88ffff]prednisone[/highlight] for 22 years before AP. It took me 2 years on AP to finally get off that drug. The last 5 mg are the toughest. I dropped about 1/4th mg at a time (used 1 mg tablets to do that). I would stabilize and then drop another 1/4th mg. And so on -- it was a longer process but it worked.
Within 2 days of being entirely off [highlight= #88ffff]prednisone[/highlight] I had an "emergence reaction" that a doctor described as my body realizing there was no more exogenous cortisone and my adrenals had to produce now. It was a very difficult time and I hurt worse that I had ever experienced. But, when it was over, it was like peace had decended upon me and I KNEW I was permanently off that drug.
Have been off [highlight= #88ffff]prednisone[/highlight] for 7 years now. Hope you can take your time and do it the way you need to. Don't rush this one and be sure to keep your doctor in the loop. I wish you good luck with this tough stage of your road back

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Posted by Leslie (sle) AP ~9 years[/font]

[/font][font="Comic Sans MS"]Additionally, you may find helpful this askthedoc article that I found. It goes into  [highlight= #ffff88][b]weaning[/highlight][/b] off, how difficult the last 5mg (and below) are and what might help the adrenals at this time.  Link to it is below. Lynnie[/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]http://www.westonaprice.org/askdoctor/steroids.html[/font]

[font=arial]Cathy, hopefully, I've answered everything you asked, though please understand that I can only share my personal experience. I'm sorry I can't be much help with the prednisone weaning, but there are folk here who can chime in on this question who have done it successfully for you. If needs be, post a new thread to ask this question to be sure more people see it. [/font]

[font=Arial]All the very best getting yourself off the pred! I understand that the last few mgs can be challenging, but slow and steady, as with most things around here, seems to win the race. ;) Please come back and let us know how you do with all this and do hope the boswellia serratia is not going to be a problem with the pred and something you will be able to try to give you some relief during this time.  [/font]

[font=Arial]Peace, Maz[/font]

[font=Arial][/font] 
RA/Lyme - ABX since 11/06
Personal Progress Thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=301
Current Abx Protocol:
Clarithromycin 500mg BID re-started 11/5/13 (dose increased to 500mg BID on 7/3/14
Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin ("Artemisinin Essentials") restarted 7/3/14, 2 caps twice daily, 5 days per week for 3 weeks each month with 7 days off
Ivermectin 2mg (rx compounded) daily, started 9/21/11
Various staple supps: Enhansa, NAC, ALA, Morinda Supreme, KriaXanthin, B Complex, Milk Thistle, Dessicated Adrenal, Adaptan-All, Probiotics, Systemic Enzymes, Vit D3, Magnesium Citrate, Sodium Ascorbate, ImmunoPro, Nrf2 Activator, Liposomal glutathione, compounded topical progesterone.
Intermittent supps: Chemet every third day, along with NAC and BioPure Chorella followed by BioActive Minerals day following oral chelation. Weekly Myer's Cocktails and Glutathione IV Pushes for detoxification. Tri-salts and Opticleanse GHI.
FIR Sauna and other detox methods as described in Personal Progress Thread.
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Postby cac » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:56 pm

as always maz, you're a wealth of information. frankly, i have trouble keeping all the information i read straight, but know i have to try something different. i've been on the minocin for about 8 mo. i haven't gotten any worse and sometimes feel a bit better. have very little appetite (perhaps the plaquenil) and weight has dropped to under 90 lbs (i'm only 5' 1" so not as bad as it may seem). think i really need to make myself eat more and more nutritious food and take some supplements (as i think yeast is becoming a problem) -- but it's so hard to chose the right thing and my rheumy isn't very helpful. also, determined to get off the prednisone. will read the info you provided carefully and will try to get some input from the rheumy before starting. thanks, cathy.
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Postby Maz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:53 am

[user=1360]cac[/user] wrote:
i've been on the minocin for about 8 mo. i haven't gotten any worse and sometimes feel a bit better. have very little appetite (perhaps the plaquenil) and weight has dropped to under 90 lbs (i'm only 5' 1" so not as bad as it may seem). think i really need to make myself eat more and more nutritious food and take some supplements (as i think yeast is becoming a problem) -- but it's so hard to chose the right thing and my rheumy isn't very helpful. also, determined to get off the prednisone. will read the info you provided carefully and will try to get some input from the rheumy before starting.

Cathy, no worries...it's hard for everyone to take in all the info here in the first year...it's hard enough coping with the pain and brain fog. ;) I think everyone understands, so you just ask away. Also be sure to use the search box above for anything, as there are some really valuable past discussion threads on various topics. In fact, A Friend has posted quite a few times on a wasting syndrome that she went through, losing weight, and how she managed to turn that around. Here are a couple of links to some suggestions to help regain some of that weight with some simple recipes:

http://rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=1560&forum_id=1&highlight=wasting+syndrome

http://rbfbb.org/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1&highlight=wasting+syndrome

I was also thinking about why aspirin may be contraindicated for use with prednisone. Aspirin, bought over the counter, has a tendency to cause stomach ulcers when used for an extended period. A friend of ours was advised to take a baby aspirin a day by his GP and several months later landed in the hospital with several bleeding ulcers. If such a predicament were to happen for someone taking prednisone, this combination could be lethal, as prednisone is known to slow healing. In fact, another friend of a friend recently passed away as he had been on longterm pred and they were unable to control his stomach ulcer bleedout....very sad.

As far as I know, however, although boswellia serratia is like a more natural form of aspirin, it supposedly does not carry the same risks of over-the-counter aspirin. Needless to say, this combination is definitely something to check and cross-check with your doc/pharmacist before trying. ;) Just found this InteliHealth link which has quite a bit of info on possible drug interactions and side-effects of boswellia serrata, though I can't vouch for this site's accuracy or completeness:

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/31402/348745.html?d=dmtContent

Peace, Maz
RA/Lyme - ABX since 11/06
Personal Progress Thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=301
Current Abx Protocol:
Clarithromycin 500mg BID re-started 11/5/13 (dose increased to 500mg BID on 7/3/14
Compounded Liposomal Artemisinin ("Artemisinin Essentials") restarted 7/3/14, 2 caps twice daily, 5 days per week for 3 weeks each month with 7 days off
Ivermectin 2mg (rx compounded) daily, started 9/21/11
Various staple supps: Enhansa, NAC, ALA, Morinda Supreme, KriaXanthin, B Complex, Milk Thistle, Dessicated Adrenal, Adaptan-All, Probiotics, Systemic Enzymes, Vit D3, Magnesium Citrate, Sodium Ascorbate, ImmunoPro, Nrf2 Activator, Liposomal glutathione, compounded topical progesterone.
Intermittent supps: Chemet every third day, along with NAC and BioPure Chorella followed by BioActive Minerals day following oral chelation. Weekly Myer's Cocktails and Glutathione IV Pushes for detoxification. Tri-salts and Opticleanse GHI.
FIR Sauna and other detox methods as described in Personal Progress Thread.
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Postby PhilC » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:03 pm

[user=1360]cac[/user] wrote:
i've been on the minocin for about 8 mo. i haven't gotten any worse and sometimes feel a bit better. have very little appetite (perhaps the plaquenil) and weight has dropped to under 90 lbs (i'm only 5' 1" so not as bad as it may seem).

Hi Cathy,

Your loss of appetite could be due to the minocycline. See:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a682101.html#side-effects

Also, 100 mg of Minocin per day seems high for someone with RA. It gives me the impression that your doctor is not following the AP, but using minocycline as a DMARD. The AP uses pulsed antibiotics. You may want to talk to your doctor about the possibility of switching to 100 mg of Minocin three times per week (e.g., M-W-F).

Phil
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Albert Einstein
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